[Knight Templar]

I was in biology class the other day, we were discussing evolution and darwin and the likes and the inevitable question "I am *insert religous beleifs here* , i think this is blashpemy, can i be excused?" question came up, and responsivly i thought of darwin and evolution and how things evolved from the first single celled creatures.

So Evolutionism (or is it Evolutionaryism? wow i sound like Bush now ) bassically states that animals adapt their bodies to suit their enviroments with each generation, having the weak links die out due to not mating. now creationism (Sp? context?) says that god created the animals in one day and that they did't evolve from single celled organisms. correct?

So my theory, if i remember correctly, went sometihng along the lines of; maybe God did create animals in a evolutionist fashion but explained it to early humans in a way they could understand. Lemme see if i could clarify.. lets say God created the Dog right? Well evolution says that the dog evolved from wolves which came form earlier forms which came from fish stuff or something (sorrry for my lignorance, work with me here) but it is known that there are wolves and dogs today, wolves were tamed and nutured by humans, so they becamse less fierce and such like the wolves, so when different races of wolves around the world were tamed, those wolves had already adapted to their individual enviroments, and with that, and cross breeding, there are many different types of dog today. But that didn't start till about 10,000 B.C. if i remember my hisrotry correctly, so essentially back in the time of Adam and Eve, there were no dogs, only wolves.  

now whiel writing this i was trying to keep some of my ideas from possibly conflicting while trying to get it out before forgetting it so hang in there.

What i am trying to get at is, that there very well could have only been single celled organisms in life with God there, and he gave them the essentials and knowledge and ability to grow and evolve and adapt to their surrondings as needed to stay alive and further their race. It evolved and evolved and did the whole process to where it is now the animal kingdom of the earth. Now you say "no, he created each animals" like i beleive it said in Genesis (i haven't read my bible in a long time, someone help me) well, think of it this way, if you were the a human, the very first human, didn't even kow shame enough to wear clothing , woudl you know about advanced molecular biology? Well the basis behind what i was theoriesing was that God could have explained it to where they would understand it. After all, even if they were all one, single celled organism at one time, he did create them, even before they evolved and changed into what he presented to Adam and Eve.

Now for the last item, you say "well in the bible it states that the earth was created in 6 days and  the animals in two days, (first the ocean life and then the rest) evolution takes millions of yeas"  Well i think , once again i think God used siplification so that the humans would understand him. He started off with the Ocean life, correct? well the first cells and creatures formed in the ocean, and then they adapted for land as they needed. As for the time discripency, God is Omnipotent (everywhere, anywhere , all the time, any time, all knowing, all powerful) right? so essentially, he does in fact exist out of time. i don't know the exact calculations and ai don't know if anybody could, but perhaps the 11 Billion years or so that the Universe has been around for, was only the equivilant of 6 days worth of work for God ( pondering what he wanted to make, and doing it )


Alright, that is my theory basically, i'm sure there are plenty of holes in it. Feel free to bring in objective commenting, poke holes if you any possible

PLEASE DO NOT TURN THIS INTO A RELIGOUS DEBATE OR FLAME WAR  the last thing i want is for this to be closed in 4 hours

[Blue Lion]

I don't know what you'd expect this to turn into other than a religious debate.

[Knight Templar]

comments... wether or not it could be possible.



honestly i don't really care that much, i just wanted to see what people think.

[vadar_1]

{post deleted} That was uncalled for, vadar.

[Bobboau]

"So Evolutionism (or is it Evolutionaryism? wow i sound like Bush now  ) bassically states that animals adapt their bodies to suit their enviroments ... correct?
"
no that is incorect, in an evolutionary system those organisms less suited to surivial and reproduction will not be represented in the next generation, there is no consus effort for improvement or adaption,
adaption is more of a byproduct of simple mater of fact things like
things that are better at living and reproduceing more do so but better that those that aren't as good, and thus there are more of them

[Knight Templar]

noted

[vadar_1]

Originally posted by Bobboau
"So Evolutionism (or is it Evolutionaryism? wow i sound like Bush now  ) bassically states that animals adapt their bodies to suit their enviroments ... correct?
"
no that is incorect, in an evolutionary system those organisms less suited to surivial and reproduction will not be represented in the next generation, there is no consus effort for improvement or adaption,
adaption is more of a byproduct of simple mater of fact things like
things that are better at living and reproduceing more do so but better that those that aren't as good, and thus there are more of them

pfft, duh. Thats exactly why we are negativly evolving. Soon instead of the superhuman, we will have a race of scrawny nerds.

[CP5670]

{edited}

"So Evolutionism (or is it Evolutionaryism? wow i sound like Bush now  ) bassically states that animals adapt their bodies to suit their enviroments ... correct?
"
no that is incorect, in an evolutionary system those organisms less suited to surivial and reproduction will not be represented in the next generation, there is no consus effort for improvement or adaption,
adaption is more of a byproduct of simple mater of fact things like
things that are better at living and reproduceing more do so but better that those that aren't as good, and thus there are more of them

That's actually the same thing; the ecosystem as a whole adapts to its surroundings by replacing the weak parts of it.

pfft, duh. Thats exactly why we are negativly evolving. Soon instead of the superhuman, we will have a race of scrawny nerds.

That is the superhuman.

[Knight Templar]

hmmm.. twilight is certainly upon our fair race

 (damn shakepsear... nobody talks like that anymore  it's just not useful)

meh, i've had alousy day, night' .

[diamondgeezer]

As I have mentioned before, I reckon it was aliens wot dun it

[Sandwich]

So you don't spend hours wondering, I edited those posts. If you have beef with that, PM me.

Back to topic, I recently heard a scientist explain how the 6 days of creation can be corraborated (sp?) with the however-many billions of years dictated by evolution. Basically, basing things on how time slows down the faster you go - relative time, that is - you can have the universe created in 6 days (relative time), over the period of however-many billion years, "absolute" time. And of course, the reason for the high velocity that is causing the time distortion? The Big Bang.

I can get more specific information - even formulas, CP - if anyone's interested. It was in a book I have.

[wEvil]

the universe was 5 billion years old by the time our solar system formed - while its only an estimate its a quite widely accepted fact.

SO unless you're saying the solar system is far older than we think it is (I.E, it formed during the supercooling phase of the rapid inflationary model of the universe, which it couldn't have because it was too hot for anything more complex than a few oxygen/magnesium atoms by then), it still has trouble standing up to scrutiny.

However, post up a few excerpts - i'm interested in reading them

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by wEvil
the universe was 5 billion years old by the time our solar system formed - while its only an estimate its a quite widely accepted fact.

SO unless you're saying the solar system is far older than we think it is (I.E, it formed during the supercooling phase of the rapid inflationary model of the universe, which it couldn't have because it was too hot for anything more complex than a few oxygen/magnesium atoms by then), it still has trouble standing up to scrutiny.

However, post up a few excerpts - i'm interested in reading them

No problem. First of all, the book is "The Science of God", by Gerald L. Schroder.

I was going to type some stuff out of his book, but I found that he has some good articles on his website, such as this:

[q]

15 billion or six days?

Today, we look at time going backward. We see 15 billion years. Looking forward from when the universe is very small - billions of times smaller - the Torah says six days. In truth, they both may be correct. What's exciting about the last few years in cosmology is we now have quantified the data to know the relationship of the "view of time" from the beginning, relative to the "view of time" today. It's not science fiction any longer. Any one of a dozen physics text books all bring the same number. The general relationship between time near the beginning and time today is a million million. That's a 1 with 12 zeros after it. So when a view from the beginning looking forward says "I'm sending you a pulse every second," would we see it every second? No. We'd see it every million million seconds. Because that's the stretching effect of the expansion of the universe.

The Torah doesn't say every second, does it? It says Six Days. How would we see those six days? If the Torah says we're sending information for six days, would we receive that information as six days? No. We would receive that information as six million million days. Because the Torah's perspective is from the beginning looking forward. Six million million days is a very interesting number. What would that be in years? Divide by 365 and it comes out to be 16 billion years. Essentially the estimate of the age of the universe. Not a bad guess for 3000 years ago.

The way these two figures match up is extraordinary. I'm not speaking as a theologian; I'm making a scientific claim. I didn't pull these numbers out of hat. That's why I led up to the explanation very slowly, so you can follow it step-by-step. Now we can go one step further. Let's look at the development of time, day-by-day, based on the expansion factor. Every time the universe doubles, the perception of time is cut in half. Now when the universe was small, it was doubling very rapidly. But as the universe gets bigger, the doubling time gets exponentially longer. This rate of expansion is quoted in "The Principles of Physical Cosmology," a textbook that is used literally around the world.

(In case you want to know, this exponential rate of expansion has a specific number averaged at 10 to the 12th power. That is in fact the temperature of quark confinement, when matter freezes out of the energy: 10.9 times 10 to the 12th power Kelvin degrees divided by (or the ratio to) the temperature of the universe today, 2.73 degrees. That's the initial ratio which changes exponentially as the universe expands.)

The calculations come out to be as follows:

• The first of the Biblical days lasted 24 hours, viewed from the "beginning of time perspective." But the duration from our perspective was 8 billion years.
• The second day, from the Bible's perspective lasted 24 hours. From our perspective it lasted half of the previous day, 4 billion years.
• The third day also lasted half of the previous day, 2 billion years.
• The fourth day - one billion years.
• The fifth day - one-half billion years.
• The sixth day - one-quarter billion years.

When you add up the Six Days, you get the age of the universe at 15 and 3/4 billion years. The same as modern cosmology. Is it by chance?

But there's more. The Bible goes out on a limb and tells you what happened on each of those days. Now you can take cosmology, paleontology, archaeology, and look at the history of the world, and see whether or not they match up day-by-day. And I'll give you a hint. They match up close enough to send chills up your spine.
[/q]

As for the happenings on each day, I'll make up the table he has in the book and post in in a few minutes.

[diamondgeezer]

See? Aliens gave us our religious texts, henceall the complicated maths and astronomy.

Go von Daniken w00+!

[Sandwich]

DG:

Here's that table I promised - B.P. stands for Before Present:

{EDIT} Weird - I dunno why there's so much blank space before the table, sorry.

{EDIT #2} Fix0r3d.

The Six Days of Genesis
Day number	Start of day (years B.P.)	End of day (years B.P.)	Main event(s) of the day
			Bible's description	Scientific description
One	15,750,000,000	7,750,000,000	The creation of the universe; light seperates from dark (Gen 1:1-5)	The big bang marks the creation of the universe; light literally breaks free as electrons bond to atomic nuclei; galaxies start to form
Two	7,750,000,000	3,750,000,000	The heavenly firmament forms (Gen. 1:6-8)	Disk of Milky Way forms; Sun, a main sequence star, forms
Three	3,750,000,000	1,750,000,000	Oceans and dry land appear; the first life, plants, appear (Gen. 1:9-13)	The earth has cooled and liquid water appears 3.8 billion years ago followed almost immediately by the first forms of life; bacteria and photosynthetic algae
Four	1,750,000,000	750,000,000	Sun, Moon, and stars become visible in heavens (Gen 1:14-19)	Earth's atmosphere becomes transparent; photosynthesis produces oxygen-rich atmosphere
Five	750,000,000	250,000,000	First animal life swarms abundantly in waters; followed by reptiles and winged animals (Gen. 1:20-23)	First multicellular animals; waters swarm with animal life having the basic body plans of all future animals; winged insects appear
Six	250,000,000	approx. 6,000	Land animals; mammals; humankind (Gen. 1:24-31)	Massive extinction destroys over 90% of life. Land is repopulated; hominids and then humans

[Kazashi]

Originally posted by Sandwich

I was going to type some stuff out of his book, but I found that he has some good articles on his website, such as this:

[q]

15 billion or six days?

*snip*
[/q]

As for the happenings on each day, I'll make up the table he has in the book and post in in a few minutes.

Damn bastard stole my theory! That's rather annoying....and that table which just popped up as I was proof reading just adds to it

On second thoughts, if I'm not the only person who thinks of the universe and its interpretations in this way, it must have something going for it.

[Styxx]

Nice article you have there, and a nice reference table too. Good way to relate creationism and evolution too, even though I can't say I fully agree with the concept of God.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Originally posted by vadar_1


pfft, duh. Thats exactly why we are negativly evolving. Soon instead of the superhuman, we will have a race of scrawny nerds.

there is no such thing as negatively evolution.

if scrawny nerds have the better survibility rate then scrawny nerds is what we'll get.
Same goes for superhumans

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Styxx
Nice article you have there, and a nice reference table too. Good way to relate creationism and evolution too, even though I can't say I fully agree with the concept of God.

He has some articles on the site about evolution, too - I haven't read through them yet, though.

[Star Dragon]

It's just that I'm glad he's not a modler...

God - "Hey guys I got these great models I've been working on... Real Planets!"

Community - "Great! when will we be able to download it?"

God - "Oh in a day or too..."

Community - "Awesome!"

wait a sec... that's like 8 billion years!!!