[Unknown Target]

OK: I simply CANNOT get myself to play Freespace 2 again. Whenever I think I might want to, out of sheer boredom, I remember these two things (note, this is not to dis FS2 in any way, in fact, it's a great game, but it's age is beggining to show):

1. The lack of any ACTUALLY CHALLENGING gameplay. I mean, turn on a dime, blast the **** out of something, then turn and do it all over again. Sure, the game was really fun for the first TWO YEARS, but now it's starting to wear a little thin. Especially in the light of other games. IL-2 is of a different genre but:

-It's challenging. It's incredably challenging. But this is what makes it fun.

-You have many more things to worry about (like hitting the ground) than hitting a capital ship, and it looks great (being worked on, but the models and textures are still old, and not using the full power of the new engine).

2. The campaign is abso-fraggen-lutely CANNED. I mean, come on! It really needs some way to have a totally dynamic campaign, with basic rules (like, cutting off a supply line limits enemy ship count, etc,etc.)

Now, about the project, I think it should include (PLEASE imput, so if this goes thru, we have as much as possible to work off of:

My contributions (Please be exact):

1. Make everything more real. It is very fun to be able to slide around space and dodge missles, a la IWar2. A slider should be included to adjust the realism, along with other variables. Hitting something should not simply make you bounce off with .0001 damage at top speed.

2. Re-do the textures and models. Simply put, they are ugly by todays standards. Major rework is required.

3. Dynamic campaign. Needs to be fully dynamic: this is a MUST!

[vadar_1]

A dynamic campaign is relativly easy, there will be some consequential events in FC (save this ship, it comes back later, destroy this base, dont see this ship later kinda thing), but as for fully dynamic, how will you enforce a storyline.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by vadar_1
A dynamic campaign is relativly easy, there will be some consequential events in FC (save this ship, it comes back later, destroy this base, dont see this ship later kinda thing), but as for fully dynamic, how will you enforce a storyline.

The original Wing Commander and Wing Commander 2 had dynamic story lines. Every few missions, the campaign tree branched. Unfortunately if you don't do well in a branch mission, its possible to put the campaign on a branch that leads to inevitible loss. Chris Roberts said that this was one of the reasons they dropped the dynamic campaign trees.

[Unknown Target]

Ah-ha! But there's the buaety (sp)!
You give the player the basic storyline, and things that absolutely MUST be done (like, for instance, this thing HAS to be destroyed in a mission, i.e: It's hard-coded).
Then, the player is allowed to do anything that he wants, so long as he's trying to lead his side to victory (of course, he could lose, or switch sides, etc)

[Solatar]

I've been playing fs2 and fs2 for almost two years, and I don't think it needs much more work than it is already being given. Just so you know, the TVWP is gearing towards more realism. We have frigates, and battlecruisers and such. I don't know how we can change the collision stuff. But this would be a problem, as the ai is always bumping into each other. Your wingmen would be dead in a flash.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Ah-ha! But there's the buaety (sp)!
You give the player the basic storyline, and things that absolutely MUST be done (like, for instance, this thing HAS to be destroyed in a mission, i.e: It's hard-coded).
Then, the player is allowed to do anything that he wants, so long as he's trying to lead his side to victory (of course, he could lose, or switch sides, etc)

If you want that sort of thing, go play Daggerfall and see why it doesn't work. They've made the single best effort in that direction and it still didn't do very well.

You've basically got three routes you can go with a storyline: linear, non-linear and hybrid linear.

In a linear story line, Event A comes before B which comes before C. Each event much be handled in order. In the case of Freespace, you have campaign branches that let you decide to go down little mission loops (SOC stuff and the like) but the main story line always comes through.

In a nonlinear setup, you have Daggerfall. You're given a goal at the beginning and then left entirely on your own. You don't have to go work on the main quest. You can go off an become a murderer or whatever. There's nothing keeping you on the rail. Therein lies the problem. Its very hard to write a nonlinear game and make it compelling, becuase you ahve to spend as much time on a billion things the player will never see, as you do on the few things they will.

In a hybrid-linear setup, you have a matrix of scenarios. I believe StarFox is a good example of this. You have several dozen shorter scenarios which branch at the tail end. How you play and the choices you make, determine which of many seperate endings you receive. Generally, story writers have a specific sequence of events in mind and then throw in the rest to flesh out the story tree, but this need not be the case.

In the end, the hybrid-linear approach generally works best. It gives a lot of percieved flexibility, without having to allow for the difficulties of truly infinite choices.

[Eishtmo]

The problem with community wide projects is that they're almost never community wide.  At least, not when it comes to games, and especially Freespace.  The closest we have is the TV War stuff, and that's only because Hades (in a rather smart move) keeps a lot of the interesting stuff on the main FS modding page.  People actually look at it there, and are willing to contribute.  It also helps that we're desperate for models and mods but aren't very good at making them ourselves.

As for making a campaign, if you want to tell a story, you have to go hybrid dynamic.  For the currently on the shelf campaign No War, No Peace, there were a lot of things reguarding mission branching, side loops and things coming back and biting you in the ass.

And I think that's what we really need is a campaign where each mission effects the next.  Wingmen who die can seriously hamper your progress later.  Capital ships that get wasted are gone forever.  Things like that.

I also want a better story.  Sure, you can have a "kill the big bad ship" storyline, as long as there's more too it.  Frankly, I wanted to make the wingmen actual people with actual pasts, presents and futures.  Hell, in No War, No Peace you actually see the Bastion roll off the lines and into combat (set in the 14 Year War, obviously).  Connections, tributes, a feel for something good.

But there are limits.  No campaign will please everyone, no matter how much work is put into it, and eventually it will grow boring and old.  It is the way of things, I'm afraid.  So relax, play a different game for a while, FS will always be around later.  I know I keep my CD's safe.

[Solatar]

Well put Eishtmo. Though I do agree that if someone spends enough time, a non-linear campaign could be the best. This takes a LOT of time. Thus nobody makes campaigns like that. Most campaigns are linear, and sometimes this is best. For example the TVWar. We can't have seperate endings. It has to end up in the same place. If you screw up, the Bastion isn't killed by the Vasudans. because it HAS to come out like this.

Same with No War, No Peace. Although you can have as big of branches as you like, it all has to come out ONE WAY. In campaigns set after fs2, hybrid-linear is probably good. But I do like linear campaigns a lot.

Also, the SCP is a community wide effort, though not as much as they say. Only coders ( i.e- a small fraction of the community ) are able to directly participate.

O.T.-Also, the TVWP would be more community wide if we ever get our hosting up. ( Admins, Hint, Hint. We've been waiting three months. )

[vadar_1]

Originally posted by Hades


O.T.-Also, the TVWP would be more community wide if we ever get our hosting up. ( Admins, Hint, Hint. We've been waiting three months. )

I waited 4, and thats when there was more active admins around.

As for non-linear campaigns... that means several dozen extra missions, and half of them wont even get played.

[Solatar]

Originally posted by vadar_1

I waited 4, and thats when there was more active admins around.

I wonder how long most people wait. If its going to take this long, I might apply for hosting from VWatch.

Anyway, I like linear campaigns best. They always end the same way, and they are a story. For example, if Cardinal Spear and Awakenings ( fs1 campaigns set in the 14 year war ) had different endings, they would be trashed as ANY reference for the TVWP. As it turns out, I am using a lot of their stuff for the TVWar.

[Unknown Target]

Well, I guess I'm the only one that wants more hcallenging gameplay...

























(NOTE: That wasn't a flame )

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Well, I guess I'm the only one that wants more hcallenging gameplay...

No, we all want more challenging gameplay. My biggest complaint about every space-combat sim is that they're too easy. Even I-War2, which has an out-of-the-ordinary combat model, was easy once you adjusted to Inertia.

I'd love to have better wingman and enemy AI. I'd love to have capships that were more than walls in space (There's only one mission where I've ever been killed by a capship in FS2). I'd love to have a nice hybrid-linear branching storyline with multiple endings. Lots of those things are possible, but they'd also make the game inaccessible for most people. Hard games just aren't popular with the masses.

I remember when wingmen mattered more. In Wing Commander, when you lost Mariko, that sucked. It was got you in the gut. Wing Commander wins out over every space-sim since for its dedication to characterisation and "makeing it personal". Unfortunately, Roberts sort of forgot he was a game maker and thought he was a film maker for the last couple of games...

[Nico]

wing co 3 and 4 were great, and are his latest space sim ( yes it is, starlancer is from his brother, Erin Roberts, the one who screwed up is not Chris Roberts, and WCP is from god knows who. ). Freelancer mostly has ingame cutscenes it seems, and is really focused on characters. wait and see.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by venom2506
....Freelancer mostly has ingame cutscenes it seems, and is really focused on characters. wait and see.

Yes, but is it a space sim, or still Diablo in space? Remember, I'll not give it a chance, unless I get to pilot my ships, rather than do the Diablo-style "*click*clickclick* YAY! A WINNER IS ME!" crap.

As for Wing Commander 3 and 4, they were excellent games, but Roberts just went a little overboard with the cutscenes. There was a reason why WC4 was one of the first games on DVD. Prophecy got back to the WC2/3 era. Cutscenes, but much more action.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Eishtmo
The problem with community wide projects is that they're almost never community wide.  At least, not when it comes to games, and especially Freespace.

A good exception to this rule, though not concerning FS/FS2, is the Battlezone II Community Project (www.bz2cp.com).

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by mikhael


Hard games just aren't popular with the masses.

Since when did we become the masses? I thought we were pretty niche

Well, I'm going to start it. We (well, really I) am/are making the new RT release. You can count on some of the things I suggested to be in there

[Galemp]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
1. The lack of any ACTUALLY CHALLENGING gameplay. I mean, turn on a dime, blast the **** out of something, then turn and do it all over again.

That's a bit of an oversimplification, don't you think? I mean, that's the base behind every game where you hold a gun; Doom, UT, RTCW, JKII, XWA, SS.
What makes things interesting are the different ways it's done; how many Disney movies have you seen where the hero/heroine goes into exile, makes a triumhant return, and pushes the bad guy/girl/being off a cliff/building/tall place to his/her/its death? Same with the Greek tragedies and their theatre; telling the same story in different ways.

1. Make everything more real. It is very fun to be able to slide around space and dodge missles, a la IWar2. A slider should be included to adjust the realism, along with other variables. Hitting something should not simply make you bounce off with .0001 damage at top speed.

That's the FS2 physics engine. It's distinguishing; basically a flight sim in space. Different games have different physics, that's what makes them unique. IN X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, for example, you have the best manouverability at 1/3 throttle. It's just a choice game designers make.

2. Re-do the textures and models. Simply put, they are ugly by todays standards. Major rework is required.

This has been discussed in a thread or two already. It's a time-consuming process, the code will need to be rewritten to get over the 750 poly subobject limit, and there's no reference aside from the models themselves.

3. Dynamic campaign. Needs to be fully dynamic: this is a MUST!

Why not play a MMORPG?

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by GalacticEmperor


That's a bit of an oversimplification, don't you think? I mean, that's the base behind every game where you hold a gun; Doom, UT, RTCW, JKII, XWA, SS.
What makes things interesting are the different ways it's done; how many Disney movies have you seen where the hero/heroine goes into exile, makes a triumhant return, and pushes the bad guy/girl/being off a cliff/building/tall place to his/her/its death? Same with the Greek tragedies and their theatre; telling the same story in different ways.

Yes, but FS2 is really easy. The AI is dumb as well, FS2 AI. I mean,  on hard, they fly in front of you and get toasted! It's like every Shivan/Vasudan/Terran in the universe wants to get in front of your guns!

That's the FS2 physics engine. It's distinguishing; basically a flight sim in space. Different games have different physics, that's what makes them unique. IN X-Wing vs. TIE Fighter, for example, you have the best manouverability at 1/3 throttle. It's just a choice game designers make.

Distinguishing? Puh-lease. It' boring, and copies off of every arcade game ever made.

This has been discussed in a thread or two already. It's a time-consuming process, the code will need to be rewritten to get over the 750 poly subobject limit, and there's no reference aside from the models themselves.

1. We have lots of time, just look at BWO.

2. The code is already being re-written, and... (see #3)

3. I suggested that topic in the first place, and the only reason I did was because the new DX8 engine could handle higher poly counts. ( In theory)

Why not play a MMORPG? [/B]

1. Because I don't like them.

2. because they're too open-ended, i.e: In the campaign I envisioned, there would be a fixed set of endings, and a fixed set of beginnings. You could only come to those endings. Did you hear about CFS3's campaign? That's another good way to do it. (Of course, we wouldn't have the benifet of a history to work off of, since the campaign would be in the future.)

[Galemp]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
In the campaign I envisioned, there would be a fixed set of endings, and a fixed set of beginnings. You could only come to those endings.

But there are multiple campaigns avaliable for Freespace 2, each with a definite ending and beginning. Download half a dozen different campaigns and play through them, and see if that interests you.

[Unknown Target]

Meh, are any of them completed to a high standard of quality (unlike most of the mini-release ones on Vwatch)