Author Topic: The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.  (Read 7017 times)

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Offline Unknown Target

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Ahhh....here we go! Our first discussion.

Now, the theme for this thread is prouplsion. Please keep spam to a minimum, and NO FLAMING! Only legit posts in this thread, this is serious ppl.
The process we shall follow is one of elimination: We first say a theory, then someone who is opposed to it tries to eliminate it. The person who is for it tries to protect it, but if the evidence is overwhelming that it wouldn't work (like using saw dust to travel faster than light by shooting it out the back of the ship), he should:

A) Try to think of a variation.

B) Study it more, and bring back evidence THAT REFUTES the previous statements.

C) Agree with the other person's theory, and try to nurture that along.

Now, first theory:
Subspace. I'd start it off, but I'm too tired.

Have at it.

 

Offline Ulundel

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
'subspace' is basically a wormhole. These things exist but no one has ever entered one (well DUH) and it's only a theory that through them, it is possible to travel billions of lightyears with just a few seconds.

My personal opinion what happens if you enter a wormhole:
A. you're a very, very sick guy
B. you feel like a sandwich
C. you're dead before you can say 'tell my wife that I love her'

I'll leave all the scientific stuff to someone else... :p

 

Offline vyper

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Quote
Originally posted by Ten of Twelve

C. you're dead before you can say 'tell my wife that I love her'



Pretty much it. Since the event horizon alone would crush you to sub-atomised pulp.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Unknown Target

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
What if you could control subspace? What if, when you entered it, you had an inhibitor, that would "push" away subspace, where everything is compressed except things inside the inhibitor?

 

Offline Ulundel

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
'push' away? Gotta think about it...

 

Offline Unknown Target

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
It's a long shot: Let's say, for instance, subspace was positively charged. So you'd have to negatively charge all matter in the traveler's spaceship to push it away.

That's one way of doing it...

 

Offline Sandwich

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Quote
Originally posted by Ten of Twelve

B. you feel like a sandwich


:wtf:


Ahem. Anyways, there's a bunch of info about subspace in the Freespace Reference Bible:

[q]
Subspace Technology

While travel into subspace is enabled via ship-borne devices (called “subspace engines”, “cores”, or “motivators”), it’s long been known that subspace itself is a naturally-occuring phenomena.  

Subspace, for the intents of this document, is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply.  By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away.  This technology has allowed the human race to spread across much of the known Galaxy.

There are essentially two modes of subspace travel, inter-system and intra-system.

Intra-system subspace travel is nearly instantaneous, and requires relatively little energy input to enable.  Most of the GTA’s advanced fighters are equipped with intra-system jump motivators, allowing them to travel at will within a given star system.  There is little or no restriction on the beginning and end points of such a subspace “hop,” except that they be in the same star system.  

Inter-system travel via subspace is another matter entirely.  The end points of inter-system subspace jumps are limited to the naturally-occuring focal points of subspace, also known as “nodes.”  These nodes were initially discovered by Prof. J. Whiteside (see McPherson’s Multipaedia  (2557 ed.), pp 1132-1140).  Only between two subspace nodes is the fabric of subspace strong enough to support inter-system travel.  The defense of the physical locations surrounding such nodes proved to be a central part of the 14-year Terran-Vasudan War.

In addition, such massive amounts of energy input are required to open an inter-system node, that only the largest fusion pile reactors in existence are able to sustain it.  As a result, inter-system subspace travel is almost exclusively made by the largest vessels in production.  This fact has made the GTA’s Orion-class destroyer/carriers a pivotal and crucial part to the GTA’s tactical forces during the T-V War.

Needless to say, the ability to deliver ships of war to nearly any pinpointed destination has forever revolutionized the concepts and long-standing tenants of space combat.
[/q]
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Offline Ulundel

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
One thing is Freespace, other is reality

 

Offline Unknown Target

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Already looked. This is about the most usefull part of that entire thing:

Quote
Subspace....is an alternate physical plane of space where the normal limits of relativistic physics and travel don’t apply. By entering subspace for a relatively brief period of time, a space vessel can emerge in a location in realspace several star systems away.


We are focusing on reality, not fantasy ;)

  

Offline vyper

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Quote
Originally posted by Unknown Target
What if you could control subspace? What if, when you entered it, you had an inhibitor, that would "push" away subspace, where everything is compressed except things inside the inhibitor?


Like Warp Fields in Star Trek?
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Offline Unknown Target

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Sort of, but that's for another topic. Right now propulsion is what we're concentrating on....

But, yes, I guess they basically do the same thing, except in different envireoments.

 

Offline StratComm

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Actually "warp field" is a misnomer to a certain degree.  Based on the theory of relativity (and some tests involving super-dense materials) it is possible to bend space, or more specifically to add and remove space between two objects.  Warp drive would be easily achieved if we had some way of removing (collapsing) the space in between us and our destination and creating (expanding) the space behind us.  With such an ability, the only factor in the time it takes for one to reach a distant destination is the rate at which you can compress/expand space.  Sort of like in Dune, "traveling between the stars without ever moving," such a system would be a true warp drive.  This is  the only faster-than-light form of transportation, besides wormholes, that is currently understood as theoretically possible.
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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Anaz

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
just curious, but what would happen to all of that 'in between' space?
Arrr. I'm a pirate.

AotD, DatDB, TVWP, LM. Ph34r.

You WILL go to warpstorm...

 

Offline StratComm

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
As long as nothing is in that space, nothing happens.  Everything in compressed space would be moved closer together.  Thinking of space as a "fabric" is an over-used analogy, space can be compressed or expanded with relatively little consequence.
who needs a signature? ;)
It's not much of an excuse for a website, but my stuff can be found here

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Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Liberator

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
I'm temporarily tabling the FTL talk, as this thread is about realistic methods of space propulsion.

Ok, propulsion.  To talk about propulsion, you've got to talk about ship mass.  

The more massive the ship, the more powerful an engine is required to move it.  

Then you factor in time.  How fast do you want to get where you're going?  You can make the ship go faster by using more propellant, but you still have to save enough to stop once you get to your destination.  Also, if you use all you're propellant to start and stop, what if you discover an asteroid in you're path?

Realistically, in the next 20-30 years we'll see interplanetary craft powered by nuclear fission and propelled by hydrogen torch, due to the fact that hydrogen provides the most propulsive power for the least amount of reaction mass.

Beyond that, we'll probably see fusion replace fission first.  Then, possibly as we begin to explore the possibilities of 12 dimensional Hyperspace, we could see the "Space Transfer Drive"  discussed above, although I can only see it used for interstellar journeys as it couldn't be very accurate initally.  Also, we could see "Mass Shifting", similar to Inertial Damping in Star Trek, where part of the mass of the ship is shifted to an altenate sub-dimension, possibly generated by a system of field generators through out the ship.  This would have the effect of allowing massive vessels to be built, on the order of the Orion or the Hecate.

Well there's my suggestion/theory.  Now, pick it to pieces!
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There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline NeoHunter

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Wow. Lots of input here. Now I'm interested.:D

Anyway, sometime back, (like maybe beginning of this year I think), I remember reading a small article in the newspapers one morning. It was about NASA trying to develop engines for spaceships to travel near the speed of light or maybe faster than what present space shuttles can top out at.

It said that NASA was tinkring with the idea of using engines powered by nuclear power since nuclear power takes forever to sort of die out. Another theory NASA was thinking about was ion engines. Instead of the typical hydrogen and oxygen engines on space shuttles now which emit yellow or orange flames, ion engines would emit blue flames.

Now, I don't know if that is real or not or whether NASA gave up, but I thought I should share it with you guys here.

Seriously speaking, if you could travel at the speed of light, how do you prevent yourself from becoming pure energy as theorized by Einstein's E=MC2?
« Last Edit: October 27, 2002, 01:03:09 am by 39 »

 

Offline Liberator

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
In answer to the last part: You can't.  In this universe, it is impossible to accelerate an object to the speed of light.  As you approach the speed of light, the mass of the object increases thus requiring additional thrust to accellerate it.  Eventually you reach a point where enough energy cannont be generated in a controlled manner to accellerate the object any faster.

Ion engines still require propellant, in practice they are just more powerful versions of the chemical based engines currently is use.  NASA seems to have lost the pioneering spirit it had in the 1960s under President Kennedy, but thats another thread entirely.

This reminds me of a method of delivering cargo at interplanetary ranges I saw on TLC or TDC.  A vessel is built that has a massive "sail" attached some kilometers in front of the actual cargo pod.  The pod is equipped with approximately 20-30 small scale thermonuclear devices which are release toward the "sail" and detonated once a safe  distance has been reached.  The resulting energy rebound's off the "sail" providing proplusive force.  The downside is the acceleration is so enormous no living thing, save bacteria, could survive it.
So as through a glass, and darkly
The age long strife I see
Where I fought in many guises,
Many names, but always me.

There are only 10 types of people in the world , those that understand binary and those that don't.

 

Offline Stunaep

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
oh, the theory of relativity is sooo last century.

Read  Hawking.
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Offline NeoHunter

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The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
So, if it is impossible to travel at the speed of light without becoming energy, how can Humans travel to other systems and planets? Are we destined to remain in our own little Solar System?

 

Offline diamondgeezer

The HLST Project, first discussion---Propulsion.
Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep
Read  Hawking


I seem to remember... something about the Universe being the shape of a doughnut? Did I get that right? Meh... I'm not smart :)

Anyways, the ion drive is of limited use - sure, it can theoretically propel a ship up to ten percent the speed of light, but then we're still looking at forty years to reach AC... even longer, since the bloody things takes ages to accelerate. The beauty of it is it just keeps getting faster, and faster, and.. well, you get the idea.

Basically, we're not leaving the solar system, or even going much further than Mars probably, until we discover either a new law of physics, or that we got an existing one wrong. To even go to Mars NASA is looking at completely radical approches to space travel, so you can imagine what we'd need to think up in roder to leave Sol.