Author Topic: ermmmm ok?  (Read 7774 times)

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Offline CODEDOG ND

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I couldn't find the article, but I was watching Fox News and they had this report about being able to test your unborn child for birth defects like, mental retardation, blindness, deafness, etc.  So that you could have the option of having the child or have an abortion.  I didn't catch all of it.  What was really absurd was they were basing the option on the rise in health care exspenditures and the "quality" and "fullness" that these people wouldn't have!

Sometimes I wish I had a sign with :wtf:  on it.  What says that somebody that is blind, deaf or mentally challenged can't have a "good" quality of life, or just because your children are handicaped in some way, you don't want them because "it would cost too much."  Some people make me wonder why the hell they think life is so great then act so damn selfishly by trying to deny others the oppirtunity(sp?) just because they are not what most call "normal."  :doubt:
It's a fact.  Stupid people have stupid children.  If you are stupid, don't have sex.  If you insist on having sex.  Have sex with animals.  If you have sex with an animal.  Make sure the animal is smarter than you are.  Just encase of some biological fluke you and the animal have offspring, they won't be as stupid as you are.   One more thing.  Don't assume the animal is protected.  If the animal has a condom, or if female some interuterian device, insist they wear it.  Help stop this mindless mindlessness.  Keep your stupidty to yourself.  This message was brought to you by the Committee of Concerned Citizens that are Smarter than You are.

  

Offline Sandwich

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I agree, but then again I'm against abortion in general.

...And don't try to stick me with that "rape pregnancies" crap - there are _plenty_ of people in the world who are dying to adopt. :doubt:
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline ZylonBane

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Ah, the eternal paradox-- life is both precious and cheap.

Say you find out your unborn child is destined for a life of debilitating handicap. Some argue that if you choose to abort that child you're denying him a chance at life. But then you could just as well argue that if you keep the baby, you're denying life to the one you would have conceived after it.

Feh, some people just can't accept that their existence in the world is the product of pure chance.
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Offline Mr. Vega

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I view it as one life is precious, while many are cheap.

No one has the right to judge another's life before they are even born.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
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Offline Galemp

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Six billion on one planet? Eh, we don't need all of them. *tidies things up by killing several million starving and homeless*

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« Last Edit: December 10, 2002, 11:43:09 pm by 510 »
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Offline Blue Lion

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich

...And don't try to stick me with that "rape pregnancies" crap - there are _plenty_ of people in the world who are dying to adopt. :doubt:



And you know we can't keep kids in foster homes here, they're flying out like hotcakes. You find a way to get the child out of the mother once she doesn't want it, do it. Until then, it's not your business.

 

Offline Knight Templar

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It's not like a fetus is a "real" human being anyway...


and besides.. If I were a thirteen year old schoo / whore.. I wouldn't necasarily want a child .. and I don't think you would either.
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Offline Joey_21

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Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
It's not like a fetus is a "real" human being anyway...  


:wtf:

It's the principle of it.... the child will be human.

 

Offline IceFire

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Ahhh...some points to make.

Before I say anything else, I fully support the right to choose your own path.  This is supposed to be a relatively free country and one of my biggest beefs is where people refuse to believe that other people think and have different ideas than they do.  Therefore, I personally feel that people have a right to make these choices, but I also feel that under that, those opposed to actions like abortion (and I'm not entirely infavor of abortion myself) should also be allowed to express those opinions.  It crosses the line when someone tries to burn down an abortion clinic.

I think the idea of being able to know that the child has a seriously debilitating disease or birth defect before being born is a great idea.  Either way, I feel that when I have children, I want to know what problems if any I can/have to deal with.  I know right now...that if I had a mentally handicapped child that I would personally probably not be able to deal with it.  Thats not discrimination, thats not shirking of responsibilities to life, I know that I would not be able to cope...thats my defect.  So I'm not sure what I would choose but I want to have that choice.

Finally I'll end on one last thing.  Before anyone gets carried away in a heated debate, remember one thing.  Democracy and democratic governments may be corrupt, they may not work all the time, they may not work always in our interest, but I feel that there is hope for the human race...and elements of our way of life...why?  Because we can all sit down here and try and deal with these issues by talking it out.  Hopefully, we can entertain mutual understanding here.  Carry on!
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Offline Blue Lion

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Quote
Originally posted by Joey_21


:wtf:

It's the principle of it.... the child will be human.


So will an egg and sperm :wtf:

 

Offline Goober5000

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There's a marvelously written article here that convincingly argues that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception.

Unborn children are human beings and have rights just like each of us.  When they're aborted - it doesn't matter at what stage - their rights are unjustly deprived.  It's politically correct, because unborn children are thought of as "property".  It's just like Dred Scott v. Sanford, only worse - because here it's a matter of life or death.

That said, I think anti-abortion advocates who bomb or burn down abortion clinics, or who murder abortion doctors, are hypocritical in the extreme.  The irony of it is disgusting.

 

Offline Kamikaze

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It seems quite apalling for one to be so arrogant as to kill something which they accidentally or puposefully conceived.. If you're not going to be responsible go get yourself a vasectomy...

However... why is it wrong to kill humans before they are born but not to kill chicken before they are born? If it's because we're hunters and we can kill and eat to sustain ourselves (and of course we're most important to ourselves right?) then is it not for the survival of the mother that she is aborting? Is it wrong to kill for survival?

By the way.. why is individual life important? I mean, if you're going to argue it's survival of a species why don't we clone so many humans every year to sustain population? Or is it another one of those 'morality' things that you can't rationalize because it's simply community-induced restrictions based on coded behavior? (please don't say "what if you were the child" stuff because I'm not, never will be and can't appreciate being spared if I WAS that fetus anyway)
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Offline CP5670

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I don't see anything universally wrong with abortion, but then again there is nothing wrong with killing a person either; heck, as far as that matters, both actions are equivalent to something like breaking up a pile of dirt. :D And from an economic/social standpoint, life is very cheap simply due to its great abundance.

What I find funny though is that many of these abortion advocates are also the humanistic types, saying that it is fine to abort the fetus (or the pile of dirt, for that matter) but it is not okay to do anything to a live human; as Kamikaze said, this is both contradictory and stupid. :p

Quote
Say you find out your unborn child is destined for a life of debilitating handicap. Some argue that if you choose to abort that child you're denying him a chance at life. But then you could just as well argue that if you keep the baby, you're denying life to the one you would have conceived after it.


Actually, to extend this argument, you could also say that by not spending every moment of your existence conceiving children, you are "denying" these potential children their chance at life. :D

Quote
and besides.. If I were a thirteen year old schoo / whore.. I wouldn't necasarily want a child .. and I don't think you would either.


in this case, abort both the child and the parents. :D

Quote
Before I say anything else, I fully support the right to choose your own path.


I say that people are just deluded by society into thinking that they have a right to "free choices;" nobody has any rights to choose because nobody has any true capability to choose in the first place. :D

Quote
There's a marvelously written article here that convincingly argues that a human being is a human being from the moment of conception.


Actually, it could easily be argued that the pile of dirt mentioned earlier will form a human being too, given time and the appropriate conditions (which is true in the case of a fetus as well). :D
« Last Edit: December 11, 2002, 01:16:30 am by 296 »

 

Offline Tiara

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I have a question, would the same go if you were to take your own life?

Cause here in Holland we are allowed euthanasia. The act or practice of ending the life of an individual suffering from a terminal illness or an incurable condition, as by lethal injection or the suspension of extraordinary medical treatment. The illness does not have to be lethal.

Ow, yeah, this does need doctors approval (or psychiatrist).

I think this is a good law since people would kill themselves anyway if they really wanted.
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Offline Goober5000

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One has a moral obligation to preserve one's own life, within reason.  I think it is morally acceptable to end one's life by discontinuing extraordinary measures to prolong it (e.g. life support), but I do not think it is morally permissible to end one's life intentionally (such as via lethal injection) without an objective reason.

 

Offline Tiara

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Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
One has a moral obligation to preserve one's own life, within reason.  I think it is morally acceptable to end one's life by discontinuing extraordinary measures to prolong it (e.g. life support), but I do not think it is morally permissible to end one's life intentionally (such as via lethal injection) without an objective reason.


So if you were viciously scarred by a raging fire in your house, your family was killed, you live in horrible pain but yet you can live without medicines you wouldn't want to kill yourself? I would. I for one will not live in horrible pains for years to come. Not being able to do what I want due to that same pain.

Also the loss of your family wouldn't exactly help.
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Offline CP5670

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Well, it could just as easily be argued that one has a "moral obligation" not to sit on chairs, or something like that. :D I think that there is of course nothing wrong with killing oneself, but like I said, there is nothing wrong with anything for that matter. (I think there is actually a law against this around here; what are they going to do, put the corpse in prison? :rolleyes: :D)

 

Offline Tiara

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In holland that law is changed and you can now do this :p Yeah, i know... Holland is almost always the first with these things :D

And yeah, whats the point of forbidding it? :lol:
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
It's not like a fetus is a "real" human being anyway...


and besides.. If I were a thirteen year old schoo / whore.. I wouldn't necasarily want a child .. and I don't think you would either.


Oh, please. Where do you draw the line at a "real" human being then? Birth? So all those premature babies aren't "real" humans until 9 months from their conception? Or perhaps you define it from the moment a fetus is able to survive outside the womb? Which doesn't make sense, either, because a newborn baby - fully developed, with the full 9 months in their mothers' womb - cannot survive outside the womb on their own.

Modern science is always advancing, and I'm sure that the premature stage at which a baby is born and is able to be kept alive is getting earlier and earlier with new technologies, etc. So does that define when a fetus is considered to be a "real" human - when it's possible to keep them alive, with all modern medicine can do to help, outside the womb? And such an age would have to be constantly redefined as time goes on, of course. Which, to me, makes it total nonsense.

IMHO, the Chinese have it right. Life begins at conception.

Quote
Originally posted by IceFire
It crosses the line when someone tries to burn down an abortion clinic.


Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
That said, I think anti-abortion advocates who bomb or burn down abortion clinics, or who murder abortion doctors, are hypocritical in the extreme.  The irony of it is disgusting.


Agreed 100% - that is hypocrisy of the first degree, aside from being murder if someone dies.
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline an0n

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Pfff. By allowing all the deaf, blind and stupid people to grow old and breed we're just polluting the gene pool. Natural selection got us electronics, understanding of the atom and up into space, so why in God's name would we abandon it so easily.

Not only should disabled people be killed (right up until their natural death), their parents (and thus their defective genes) should either be killed or neutered. Unless they've got some miraculous genetic factor which would allow them to significantly contribute (ala Stephen Hawkins).

It may sound cruel, but think of all the extra billions they'd have to invest in things like cancer research, child welfare and even put it towards finding cures for deafness, blindness etc. You can either kill a cripple and use the $1 million a year medical fees to get 5 kids out of abusive, violent, possibly lethal homes, cure cancer, feed the millions of starving etheopians or you can spend the money fitting a ramp so the cripple can roll up into school and be picked on.

The problem with the world isn't that people don't care, it's that they're too damn busy trying to help one or two high-profile things that they forget about the millions of everday troubles.

For example: Invading Iraq. They could be spending that money on building homes for tramps and thus reducing crime.

Political parties *****ing about "We need more money for the health service" and then they go spend £5 million printing posters about how the health service needs money.

To summarise: Killing cripples will create a utopia. And everyone is a ****ing hypocrit.
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