[Unknown Target]

Oh, sure, that's nice.
Here's my cross-section:

Quit making predictions. You don't have anything to back up being definite about whether the oldbies will be leaving or not. Even if the oldbies do leave, they will leave behind a great foundation for the new-comers. The breakup of a community is independent on if/when the oldbies leave.

It is in this one. That's because, like I've said before: THERE'S NO ONE ELSE BESIDES THE OLDBIES! Once a game, any game, reaches a certain age, there is no way for anyone to hear about it anymore. Hell, HLP doesn't even have a banner in the Gamespy lineup, so no one can even hear about the site, and, subsquentially, Freespace.
BTW, the oldbies WILL leave. Everything will and does come to and end, and there is no denying it. They'll get bored, they'll find another game, they'll move on!
THEY WILL LEAVE EVENTUALLY!

I see lots of new possibilities to keep the community living for a very long time with the SCP and new mods/campaigns. When our current campaigns are being released there will be more projects to get us up for even more gameplay.

Did you read a single thing I said earlier? Sure, they'll keep making campaings, but it will only be for the SELECT few who still play a 4-year-old game! Hell, I don't even play it anymore, I just mod it!

3. Leave the possibility of death alone. Some may leave but many more will come. Don't look at the fate of the community neither optimistically nor pessimistically, but logically.

Um, dude, logically this community will not last long. Logically, it should've died out about 2 years ago.


Also, what the hell is the problem with releasing a game over the internet? Sure, it's a lot of work, but, hey, BWO was in development for what, 4 years? Or would it be too much work to give this community another 5 years of life?

[Rictor]

if only that people that already like freespace just get more cool stuff like campaigns and ships, eventually a new engine etc etc i consider that a success

why do you need to bring in new people. every person has his game that he/she really likes and is a part of that community. the simple fact that halflife/mods thereof has more people interested doesnt bother me.

if the people we have right now stay here and continue to make cool stuff, i'm happy.

halflife is still being modded, ditto total anhiliation, ditto ut (ut 1 not ut2003), ditto quake3...all of which are as old or older that FS2.

to be honest i DO care about graphics and i HAVENT played fs2 in a long time. but that doesnt mean i dont like it, or that i wont play it again.

i agree, if something is to happen, we need to accept that some of the campaigns that have been started will not be completed, and get those people to pool their resources to actually release something. imagine if the Babylon project team, the Reciporicty/COW team, the Dark Alliance team, the OTT team etc etc got together, we would have ourselves an epic (again, probably know only to the community, but not necessarily)..yes BTW i do know of Paradigm Shift but is anyone actually working on that.

what i'm saying is that if you say "whatever, its as good as gone" then thats exactly what you'll get. However if you say "no, i love this game and Counter-Strike and the Sims can kiss my ass, i'm gonna keep on playing/modding" then its all good..

its up to you, if you want it to fail, goodbye, if you think it will fail, try to stop it, if you hope it wont fail, and are going to do your best to make fs live on, good for you.

now stop the arguing and start thinking of a way to make the legend live on and continue to kick ass..

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Alright, maybe I am a pessimest (it has been remarked) but I truly think this entire community will die out within the next 2-3 years, if nothing happens other than new campaigns being released.

The FS2 community will last as long as there is nothing better around than it. Due to the source code release coupled with FRED's ease of use FS2 is probably the most modable engine on the market. Until something comes along as easy to mod I can`t see much of the community leaving.

Secondly there is something we can do. FS2 is freely distributable to friends. Don`t wait till they ask for a copy - SHOVE IT DOWN THEIR THROATS NOW! :devil:
 If everyone here made sure that every friend of theirs had a copy of FS2 and the address of HLP we'd probably have 20 new members by the end of the week. I`m sure lots of us have friends who we haven`t converted over to FS2. Now we can do so legally. Don`t wait till they ask. Just give them a disk with the game on and make them play it. Even if everyone only convinced one friend that would double the number of players

[Solatar]

I've read this thread, and I was just wondering. Why don't we put fs2 up for download. But instead of putting up the original .exe, we could supply the latest version of the SCP? I'd be willing to upload it to my space on the TVWP space.

[Goober5000]

It's already uploaded on the FSSCP site.  There's a link in the SCP forum and all.  The problem is spreading the news and getting the word out.

[Unknown Target]

Some of the major newsites? CGW has a "Homebrew" column, a banner in the GS lineup and elsewhere.
There are many ways.
And imagine all the extra talent we might be able to get if more ppl join the community.

[Joey_21]

Originally posted by Unknown Target

It is in this one. That's because, like I've said before: THERE'S NO ONE ELSE BESIDES THE OLDBIES! Once a game, any game, reaches a certain age, there is no way for anyone to hear about it anymore. Hell, HLP doesn't even have a banner in the Gamespy lineup, so no one can even hear about the site, and, subsquentially, Freespace.
BTW, the oldbies WILL leave. Everything will and does come to and end, and there is no denying it. They'll get bored, they'll find another game, they'll move on!
THEY WILL LEAVE EVENTUALLY!

errm.... no.....
I see plenty of new people. You can't say all the oldbies will leave, there's no proof!

Originally posted by Unknown Target

Um, dude, logically this community will not last long. Logically, it should've died out about 2 years ago.

Based on what facts? Where do you get this information?

[Unknown Target]

It's the simple age of the game. By 2001, there were no new copies of Freespace 2 or Freespace being made, and relatively few being bought. Then about half of those who bought it never joined the community, then, of course, there were the ppl leaving: about 1 every month. Of course, you had a +2 every month as well, allthough that has now slowed down to about 5-6 ACTIVELY engaged ppl per 3-5 months.


BTW, those new ppl joining are the exception, not the rule. You notice how little they post? If you took out all the 1-posters and non-posters in the HLP database, you'd only get around maybe half the amount we have now.
And that's including the 10-posters who aren't posting anymore, and such.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
Hell, HLP doesn't even have a banner in the Gamespy lineup, so no one can even hear about the site, and, subsquentially, Freespace.

Well that one is easily resolved surely. Why doesn`t HLP have an ad in the gamespy Line-up anyway? In fact judging from the info I got from gamespy when MG was hosted it didn`t look too hard (it even sounded like I could make and submit one for MG itself let alone HLP)

[Rictor]

if we relased something serious ala sourcecode exe + some cool models and mission all in one package, PCGamer might put it on their disk,..

aside from that, we need a coherent database of mods, aswell as stuff actually getting released. I got a question, why doesnt HLP of FSWatch have a coherent database of every mod and ship model around (not the Volitonwatch archives, those are not updated  etc etc)

if we got some serious progress, maybe magazines and/or websites might give us some publicity.

BTW the source code: I havent seen one good improvement, though i may be too shallow (graphics.). Can we make FS2 look like Iwar2 or better in 6 months or less. if no, whats the big deal with going to the homeplanet engine,. we could distribute the exe for free.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Rictor
BTW the source code: I havent seen one good improvement, though i may be too shallow (graphics.). Can we make FS2 look like Iwar2 or better in 6 months or less. if no, whats the big deal with going to the homeplanet engine,. we could distribute the exe for free.

Have you even been looking?

Glow maps, damage decals, modified FRED, glowpoints, more sexps, almost all bugs fixed - andf I'm not even following it that closely.

Actally go have a look in the SCP forum before you start to knock it.

[Whitelight]

you all have made good points, i can`t argue that...

Since the birth of HLP i have watched it grow from a small webpage to what it is now. I just became a member last year, why? i guess i was a dum (insert word here)..

This community has grown and it is normal for people to leave, but that has nothing to do with the (rumors) that it is dying, that`s absurb and carries no weight, all the campaigns that are hosted here should atest to that fact and you cannot alter the truth, com`on, take a good look around, see the broad picture, it tells no lies..

As it was said many months ago, yes eventually FS2 may cease, but then HLP will just adapt with the changes and yes, you will see HLP hosting other games as well but for now, FS2 lives a strong and healthy life right here at Hardlight Productions...

[Unknown Target]

I can't believe you had bugs to fix. FS2 was originally a very stable product.

[Black Wolf]

Not really stability bugs - most of those were fixed during the whole bug fix of the day thing. More like the bug that means you can't have custom weapons in the weapons tech room, that sort of thing.

[Goober5000]

Stuff like the player entry delay, the failure music always playing for standalone missions, etc.

EDIT: Yay!  1234 posts!

[CP5670]

Interesting thread here; should have seen this before. I agree with UT on the FS lifetime issue though. As much as I wish it was otherwise, realistically speaking, it looks like the community will last another two years or so but that's probably about it. The rate at which new people are coming in is significantly lower than the rate of the older people becoming inactive, so there will eventually not be too many of us left. The problem is not at all that FS2 is old (there are much older games out there with big communities, but those communities keep regenerating over time), but rather that it is becoming nearly impossible to find these days, so nobody ever hears of it and its popularity suffers heavily. I think someone mentioned that HLP was not advertised in the gamespy banners for some reasons; this issue should definitely be addressed asap, since such advertising is much more important to the FS2 community than that of most other games.

I personally will remain fairly active in the community at least until PI is complete, but I cannot really say after that. In the last two weeks I have hardly gotten on the computer at all due to real life issues, and it probably isn't going to get any better with college.

Actually, what about that license agreement? I remember it saying that it can be distributed to friends, but who exactly qualifies as a "friend" is very fluid and subjective. What if the entire thing is released for free on the internet? This would considerably increase the rate of newcomers joining the community, and you could just say that the world is your friend.

BTW I have not been following the SCP developments very closely either; it looks like you guys have gotten quite far there, as even these little fixes can do a lot for mission designers. How is the debriefing music system handled now? Did you get around to adding a scrollbar in the command briefing screen? Also, is there now some event operator to change a ship's AI class within a mission? (I remember reading something about this in the SCP forum and might have a use for it) Anyway, it's looking very good so far.

Since the birth of HLP i have watched it grow from a small webpage to what it is now. I just became a member last year, why? i guess i was a dum (insert word here)..

Actaully, I did that on the VBB as well; you're not alone. (found the place in July 1999 but lurked until December )

[Sesquipedalian]

And besides, when the coders are upgrading the graphics and assing features, yuo can be sure that there will be bugs along the way.  Of course it was a very stable product when released, and the SCP has been doing a good job of keeping things stable.  But stability happens after the testing is done.  I'd say the SCP has done a fantastic job, and if bugs show up and are subsequently repaired, that arises as a function of adding all the new goodies.

Honestly though, Unknown Target, if you are so convinced that we are dying and you see nothing but doom and gloom, bail out, or at the very least shut up.  Besides, your pessimism isn't even coherent.  Complaining that nothing is being accomplished by the SCP to lengthen the lifespan of this "old, outdated game", and then worrying that what is being done is temporarily buggy (which only happens precisely because we are adding new, cool features) only indicates a lack of coherent thought on the subject and that you've reached this conclusion without consistently following through one line of thought to get there.  Either objection might lead to your conclusion, but the two arise in contradictory situations, so you can't have both.  Therefore it sounds to me that you've decided on this conclusion not because of certain reasons, but look for reasons because of your pre-established "conclusion".  Poor logic, my friend, poor logic.

[Solatar]

Originally posted by Sesquipedalian


Honestly though, Unknown Target, if you are so convinced that we are dying and you see nothing but doom and gloom, bail out, or at the very least shut up.  Besides, your pessimism isn't even coherent.  Complaining that nothing is being accomplished by the SCP to lengthen the lifespan of this "old, outdated game", and then worrying that what is being done is temporarily buggy (which only happens precisely because we are adding new, cool features) only indicates a lack of coherent thought on the subject and that you've reached this conclusion without consistently following through one line of thought to get there.  Either objection might lead to your conclusion, but the two arise in contradictory situations, so you can't have both.  Therefore it sounds to me that you've decided on this conclusion not because of certain reasons, but look for reasons because of your pre-established "conclusion".  Poor logic, my friend, poor logic.

Well put Sesqu.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Hades
Well put Sesqu.

Yes, indeed.

The license agreement seems to be very accommodating since it says both friends and acquaintances.  Now friends is debatable, but an acquaintance could be almost anyone you ever met, including people on the HLPBB.

CP5670: the debriefing checks to see if a campaign is currently running; if so, then it plays failure if you can't advance to the next mission, success if all goals are complete, and quasi-failure if goals aren't complete but you can still advance.  If you're not in a campaign, the music plays success if goals are complete and quasi-failure if they're not.  No command briefing scrollbar, but you can now change ship class. Read the fs2_open release thread.

[Stryke 9]

Actually, UD is planning to put up both FreeSpaces on HOTU soon. Since several thousand people regularly attend HOTU, and that's just the ones that leave a sign of such, I do believe the community may swell considerably.

Particularly if, as I'm trying to finagle, it's the SCP version of FS2 that goes up, rather than the Volition one (she wants it because she could fit in DivXed cutscenes, but the Interplay format ones are too big, we want it because it'll mean Hard Light gets some attention and glory).

Also, just as a side note- why the hell do we need the license? Interplay and Titus don't care, Volition would likely say more power to us, since they can't use it- whatever we make here, we could distribute as "FreeSparce 3" and give the Shivans an extra leg, and, honestly, nobody'd give a crap. We'd get some threatening letters from Titus, likely, but they'd be out of their minds and stupid, too, to try to sue a loose, small amateur modding community of mostly non-rich people, who put up a game with strong parallels to one they own but don't plan on profiting from. We don't even have someone in charge to bring to court. If you want to turn modding here into a profitmaking venture after Volition's gone through all the trouble to give us very good free tools (and even the source), help out community to grow at their own expense, there shouldn't be a problem with screwing Interplay out of their copyright.