[T-Man]

If the Shivan groupmind is starting to exterminate SB, what will the SB do in response? Have they even noticed the incident at Capella happened?

This mod is sounding really interesting btw, i look foward to seeing it.

[Geezer]

The SB certainly noticed Capella but the idea that the Groupmind is attacking them is totally alien to their thinking.  Sort of like a human wondering if the termites in his house are actively trying to crush him with falling beams.  That said, if the SB realize what's going on, they shouldn't have much trouble dealing with the Groupmind.  Remember that the SB are masters of energy flows so they could easily "turn off" the brains of individual GM bodies or cause GM ships to explode by tampering with the drives.  It would be tedious, but they could do it.

[Singh]

Hmm...that said, would the SB actually notice the GTVA's attempt at forcefully closing the subspace corridor from Vega to Capella? Wouldn't that send off a signal to them as well? Not to mention the fact that the Groupmind didn't seem to care about this, and instead only directed their attention at them?

[Geezer]

The SB are patient - at least by our standards.  They've genetically programmed the Groupmind to take care of this kind of thing, so they'd assume that this would all come under the GM's mandate.  Since the GM was already engaged with the GTVA, the SB would certainly wait until the GM cleaned up the mess.  If, however, the GTVA really started making a nuisance of itself, I don't suppose the SB would have any problems with urging the GM to greater efforts - the GM is a Sensitive, after all.

[IPAndrews]

This campaign is sounding stranger and stranger. It's almost got a Final Fantasy: Spirits Within feel to it now. Some of these ideas certainly have potential though and I'm very interested in seeing how this pans out.

[TopAce]

Mystery = Good

[Paegus]

One thing I say, something that shares one conciousness even if all of them are different can be quite strong. Just think it, all of groupmind shares all what they see, hear and feel, thats perfect symphony for war, no communications that can be interupted, they can strike anywhere and anywhen they want, becuse even if their scouts gets killed they know exactly whats happening where and when.

point of interest: this group minded-ness is instantaneous? what one shivan node/shell/body experiences on one side of the galaxy is already known to all nodes even on the other side or is there propagation of sorts? travel time could be used to have a group of nodes in a system act as one with an active (though not instantaneous) link to other nodes. the more nodes in-system the smarter the local set becomes. instant communication directly implies that the ability to tranverse that distance instantaneously is also possible... so subspace seems kind of limited.
data propagation times could also explain why it's possible to defeat shivan nodes at all since it as a whole would be instantly aware of everything... which does not seem to be the case.

Amazing that Terran and Vasudans were able to stop them from doing their purpose of universum, especially since StarBorns who are vastly more evolved and got caught pants down in Capella

another point of interest: shiva is essentially fighting a war on 2 fronts. the overt war with other cold-life would, as far as i can tell from the mindgame premise, be akin to us eating breakfast. it's just part of their existence and not overly important to them. if they miss breakfast at home they can pick something up at the local store etc... the war with the starborn on the other hand is vastly more complicated as no direct action can be taken least shiva's hand be tipped. to that end in the original FS campaign the shiva should have known perfectly well that a) shields don't work in subspace and b) the terran forces were hot on the lucifer's trail. it could be theorized that the shiva were aware that starborn would be watching this battle intently from subspace and in sol system so they allowed the pre-GTVA forces to cause the lucifer's destruction, blowing the jump node all in an experiment to see if it would damage the nearby starborn in the resulting shockwave.

and on that note:

What's up with the Starborn and jumpnodes?

Imagine a stand of old-growth forest. Under the trees, very little light reaches the ground, so there is almost no underbrush. At the edges of the forest, where sunlight does reach the ground, there is a heavy growth of bushes and shrubs that acts as a barrier to the woods. If a traveler wanted to cross the forest, he’d first have to force his way through these bushes, so he’d search for a nearby thin spot. Once through the bushes it would be a fairly easy walk through the trees. At the far side of the forest, he’d again look for a thin spot in the bushes and force his way out. If he kept using the same route, the bushes would eventually stop re-growing, leaving a permanent hole in the barrier. There would also be a noticeable path in the forest.

i don't think this analogy quite fits the FS universe in that during the few missions that take place in subspace you are in what seems to be a rather well defined corridor leading distinctly from point A to point B. so your forest would need some internal underbrush to be worn out of the way by repeated travel forming the trail (corridor) effect we see in subspace. the jumpnodes themselves would remain as the border brush that has grown thick due to the extra sunlight.

this doesn't quite explain the difference between intra- (within a single) and inter- (between separate) system jump drive setup other than a plot device to save the player from having to dock with some mothership all the time. i suppose that would be a quirk in that the distances intra-system are so small that you can pop out and in again so fast that you really barely touch true subspace before you're already there. normal fighter subspace engines wouldn't be powerful enough to actually break the barrier but getting close enough allowes some travel.
/shrugs

further thoughts: if a human became aware of the game could they secretly contact the shiva or are the shiva so blinded by their programmed blood-lust that they wouldn't accept help? or prehaps they'd be too afraid that the terran would let slip to a sensitive and the starborn would learn of the shiva's duplicity. terrans are, after all, all individuals and the actions of one node rarely syncronizes with the actions of the others.
opens the possibility for the shiva to contemplate genetic de-programming as a condition of the other coldlife joining into some short-lived alliance (shiva's part being "here's some info and we'll lay off killing you for a time") to stand up and say "sorry but we're not going to play anymore..."
or is it essentially impossible for the undeveloped terrans to act so without the starborn taking notice?
an out of the way, star-less void, far from any starborn-frequented subspace lanes would be a great place to find massive shiva structures conducting starborn-war experiments.

first post by the way...

[Geezer]

Interesting comments.  8)

Don’t think of the Groupmind as a bunch of mind-melded Vulcans, tho.  The GM is more like a single, not overly-bright, individual.  The GM’s bodies and technology can be compared to a human’s evolving antibodies.  When a new type threat is encountered, the GM ‘evolves’ new ways of attacking, mostly by mining its vast store of acquired enemy data, mostly below what we would consider the level of consciousness.  Of course, the GM is armed with a vast repertoire of ‘instincts’ that let it’s bodies appear to act as individuals – even to the point of making individual contact with aliens like Bosch. 

The GM is definitely limited in size, covering a few thousand light years or so, and while communication may be near-instantaneous, it still takes real time to maneuver. And, again, most of what the GM does is what we would consider instinctual, below the level of consciousness.  Occasionally, an enemy is encountered that is so different from its experience that it requires what we would think of as ‘thought’.  The SB are such an enemy, special only in that they require a new type of weapon to destroy. 

The relatively small size of the GM is also the reason for its periodic sweeps of the galaxy – it’s constantly on the move looking for intruders, like a single Doberman guarding a junkyard.   

As far as the Lucy and the subsequent collapse of the node, I’ve got no problem thinking of it as a SB ploy to set up an interesting game board.  As I’ve said, the GM is a Sensitive and as receptive to suggestion as any other.   

[Paegus]

i was thinking more along the lines of a ploy by shiva to test a new way of hurting SBs like the capella nova.
the SBs may have directed shiva in that direction to knock earth back a few generations but since shiva is aware that it's are being dragged around like a dog on a leash it could have used the opportunity to scratch at the post that was holding up the roof underwhich the SBs were sitting around with some candy and popcorn enjoying the show... or maybe beernuts...

[Geezer]

...but since shiva is aware that it's are being dragged around like a dog on a leash...

The Groupmind is not aware of its true relationship to the SB.  To the GM, the SB are just another intruder in subspace - one that, for reasons unknown, seems to meddle in the GM's business on occasion and one that requires special weapons - but just another intruder nonetheless.

[Geezer]

Oh yeah. almost forgot again:

Paegus:



(You can read the normal warnings at http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,39765.0.html)

 

[Paegus]

hmm guess i was giving the GM the benefit of the doubt regarding its intelligence since it seem to know that its evolution seemed hurried and all... prehaps they're just not that good at the math.


and hi..

[karajorma]

It's worth remembering that any war between the Starborn and the Shivans will last about as long as it takes the Starborn to realise that the Shivans are actually aware of their presence and trying to kill them. Once they are aware of that they will wipe out the Shivans. The Shivans only got away with it at Capella because it hasn't occured to the Starborn that the Shivans could be aware of them.

[Paegus]

i suppose the question then would be: is the shivan gm aware of the precariousness of their situation?
no: the shiva would probably have already screwed up or the starborn themselves aren't particularly bright either and failed to notice the attempts.
yes: implies a somewhat higher order of intelligence on the shivan's side.

[karajorma]

The shivans have only made one overt move to attack the Starborn so far and it was covered by their attacks on the GTVA. Whether they'll get away with the next one is another matter entirely.

[Geezer]

I suppose that it’s inevitable that the Groupmind will make itself obvious to the Starborn but it hasn’t happened at the time of MG – or there wouldn’t be a GM to talk about.  As far as the SB’s intelligence, as I said earlier, it’s more “changing mental gears” than any lack of IQ.  How long would you ignore (or rationalize away) any evidence pointing to the bees in your yard plotting to kill you?

Also keep in mind that even if the GM became fully aware of its relationship to the SB, it would still try to eliminate them.  It simply has no capacity for gratitude or filial responsibility or any of the other feelings that define human relationships.  (Inexplicably, it does like mimes.  In fact, there’s a mime-eating contest on the same day as the annual pie-eating contest.)

[Roanoke]

y'know, reading all your bumf,  I always thought the crux of MG was about Vasudans trapped in Solwhen the node was destroyed. Is that still true/partially true or have you fellas expanded to include bigger things ?
TBH I always liked the fact the story (appeared) quite compact but that doesn't seem to the case anymore.

And yeah, I am bored enough to be reading background from hibernating projects 

[karajorma]

MG is about the Vasudans trapped in Sol and always has been. That's what most of the missions will be about. But MG is designed to work on several levels. If you read the backstory on the site you'll see that the real story is going on at another level and that basically the conflict between the two sides is part of a larger game being played by the Starborn.

If you look at the main FS2 campaign you might be left wondering why Bosch acted the way he did but the story hangs together quite well. The same sort of thing is going on in MG. The idea is that everyone can see why the Vasudans and Terrans don't get on and why a conflict between the two is inevitable. But when playing MG you get the chance to see the universe from a different perspective too and you'll be able to see that behind the scenes the Starborn are pulling the strings and making things happen.

Have a read of the background here and you'll see that this isn't the first time they've done it either.

[Colonol Dekker]

I havent read that for years, I see its been added to since last time. Very nice, 

[karajorma]

I don't think it has actually. I suspect you're confusing it with the main introduction.