Author Topic: We're screwed  (Read 11629 times)

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Offline phreak

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Offline elorran

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Offline Knight Templar

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Offline Warlock

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Just a note ... for those going with the "Now IF they had found weapons  blah blah"

Ummm dude ...the problem is they did NOT find weapons. Meaning there's several bio-chem and such weapons NOT ACCOUNTED FOR.  

Do you ppl NOT see a problem with a bomb that can take out a city just vanishing ?


Oh wait ... that's right ... We took it to blame Sadam ... my bad.


:rolleyes:
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Offline Bobboau

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Sadam tryed to assassanate Bush (papa mind you) after the cease fire that ended hostilitys in the gulf war when Bush went on a victory lap in Kuwait, though tecnicaly I think it was after his term.
it was in 1993 I think, *googles for story*
not looking for most fair, report just to give you the idea of what happened
read
the first story I found related to the subject

if Iraq had said "all our anthrax is here go on and burn it or whatever" or if they could give a good explaination of what happened to it,
Blix has said that none of this stuff has been acounted for
if it had been we wouldn't be able to justify war with him even amung our own people (30-70 in favor today)

aggh!!! kill the kittens!!!
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Offline Knight Templar

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They're looking for any excuse for avoiding war.  Why?  Because if that weapon is used it won't be used against them... it'll be used against the US.  People say they symphathize with us, but they don't.

Note to you... The UN power's lie in the U.S.  Pure in simple.  The US has been the military for the UN.  And btw, peace at any cost is a bad idea.  History proves that.  Ask the French what they think of Vicci France.  Sure take over our country, that's cool just as long as we don't have war.

The idea of the UN having ANY moral authority is a joke when Lybia sits on the Human Rights Council.  

Let's put it this way:  They've found a missle that can go longer than the permitted range... iraq has said they won't destroy it.  That's a material breach.  They found  missles used for chemical weapons that weren't declared... hmmmm that's a material breach.  Do I need to continue?

Basically here's the bottom line:  If Saddam uses a WMD he will target two people... Iraq or the US.  What happens then?  You say sorry?  Yeah right you'll tell us that it was our fault.  That we SHOULD have attacked.

And one more thing:  I don't if you guys saw this one... but the Arab League has come out saying they are afraid of an attack against Iraq because they are afraid that it will cause uprisings in their countries.  (Keep in mind everyone of those countries is not democratic/republic at all.)  No wonder they don't want us to attack, they're comfertable with their power.
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Offline Bobboau

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my point with the assassonation atempt was that if it had suceeded we would have nuked them and sadam knew it, so he isn't afraid of our retaliation, becase us nukeing him will only kill millions of Iraqis and not him
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Er... no, we wouldn't have. If only because Bush WASN'T THE PRESIDENT WHEN THE ASSASSINATION ATTEMPT OCCURRED.

 
Still it's an attack on a US citizen and more to the point a dignitary.

**** look how WWI was started.

I'm not saying we would use nukes... we would have done something.
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Offline Rictor

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but what gives you the right to

a) tell other countries how they can/can't act. Even if its something stupid like telling Iraq to keep their public benches clean, you just cant order other countries around.

b)tell Iraq what weapons they can/cannot have. You cant have double standards (wll you can but you shouldnt)

BTW if it came down to war US vs Europe, do you honestly think you;de  win?

This is not apeasment, Saddam has shown NO indication of being a threat, or if he has, the certainly not to the US or Europe. He is not bin Laden, he is a dictator not a fanatic.

The whole point of the UN is that its aplace where countries can talk, regardless of past actions. You cant say "Libya did this, so their opinion is less worthy". America had slavery, they killed innocents in Vietnam (going into a foreign country is called invasion), etc etc. They have killed more people in the past 20 years than Libya and Iraq put together. Do you think that just becuase the wars America fought were presented as Peacekeeping (they were mostly not peacekeeping) that makes the casualties ok??

 

Offline Bobboau

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when you have an agreement that ended a war with a contry and they don't live up to it, you have the right to tell them to live up to there end or you won't live up to yours (ie you'll bomb them)

and if it came down to it do you honestly think you'd win?
no, Usama would win
« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 07:48:43 pm by 57 »
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Offline an0n

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
but what gives you the right to

a) tell other countries how they can/can't act. Even if its something stupid like telling Iraq to keep their public benches clean, you just cant order other countries around.

b)tell Iraq what weapons they can/cannot have. You cant have double standards (wll you can but you shouldnt)

BTW if it came down to war US vs Europe, do you honestly think you;de  win?

This is not apeasment, Saddam has shown NO indication of being a threat, or if he has, the certainly not to the US or Europe. He is not bin Laden, he is a dictator not a fanatic.

The whole point of the UN is that its aplace where countries can talk, regardless of past actions. You cant say "Libya did this, so their opinion is less worthy". America had slavery, they killed innocents in Vietnam (going into a foreign country is called invasion), etc etc. They have killed more people in the past 20 years than Libya and Iraq put together. Do you think that just becuase the wars America fought were presented as Peacekeeping (they were mostly not peacekeeping) that makes the casualties ok??


War with the US and Europe?  We'd slaughter you.  Sorry.  One of our battle groups... one (and we have about 10) has more airpower than most countries combined.  Also he who rules the Seas ALWAYS wins the war.  The only people to have "creidible" threats to a Nimitz group was the Russians... and even then it was with a **** load of air power.  You wouldn't have oil.  You lose.  Just acknowledge one thing... Europe is militarily weaker than the US.... probably even China.  Go to my thread... It's a pretty fair view on things.  Long read though.

What gives us the right?  The lost a war.  They AGREED to do what we wanted.  They SIGNED a peace of paper saying they would.  They fail to meet the contract that means they failed to meet OUR terms of peace.  IE war has never concluded.  This is the way the world has always worked.  Sorry but wake up if you think it doesn't work that way.  Europe for centuries did the same.

Do you remember a certain hostage situation in England when the SAS did a LIVE takedown?  That was Iraqi terrorists.  He has always supported terrorism.  And who stopped him from taking Kuwait.  We did.  He has reasons to not like us.

True America had slavery... we don't anymore.  We acknowledged we were wrong.  THEY STILL DO.  If you don't see a problem with that, get new glasses.

Vietnam was a fubar.  I acknowledge that.  **** look at France and North Africa.  Way more of a FUBAR.

Yes going into a country is invasion... but when we try to support another country that is getting invaded?  By your logic... we shouldn't have assisted you guys in WWII... I mean we were invading Germany.  (germany was France then)


A lot of this boils down to something...

We are the world power now.  You guys aren't.  Not economically, not politically.  You guys aren't used to having someone else call the shots.  PERIOD.
"I am about to drop the hammer and dispense some indiscriminant justice!" -Starcraft

"First rule of government spending, why build one for the price of one, when you can have two for twice the price." - S.R. Hadden (Contact)

 
And if I have to pull out troop numbers I will.  But we could also go into technology.  But it comes down to the sea... and your ass is grass.
"I am about to drop the hammer and dispense some indiscriminant justice!" -Starcraft

"First rule of government spending, why build one for the price of one, when you can have two for twice the price." - S.R. Hadden (Contact)

 

Offline Bobboau

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they have nukes, we wouldn't be able to disable all of them,
mutualy esured destruction,
we may have a military 10 times as powerfull as all of europe, but our military has enough fire power to burn the planet to a cinder 100 times over,
wich means they have enough fire power to burn the planet to a cinder 10 times over and if they focused it at us we would have no means by wich to defend our selves,
granted they wouldn't win, but nither would we
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 
I'm talking about a Non-Nuclear campaign.

And they don't have that many nukes.
"I am about to drop the hammer and dispense some indiscriminant justice!" -Starcraft

"First rule of government spending, why build one for the price of one, when you can have two for twice the price." - S.R. Hadden (Contact)

 

Offline Bobboau

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well, without the nukes, yes we could (if we wanted to) run through Europe like a mack truck through a swarm of flys
but they do still have nukes and I wouldn't recomend them getting rid of them any time soon (despite all of this I still don't want to see Europe taken over, I do still like them a little, on an idealistic level)
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

  

Offline Warlock

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Hmmm 'Nam ....funny guy .... FRANCE WAS THERE BEFORE THE US.

Killed Innocents...I'm just not going to bother with that ****.

Honestly I think the only way any of you kiddies would be happy ,... US just says **** the world, locks our borders and ignores your asses for a few decades and see what happens.

But then again ,... sometimes I think ppl around here just want a reason to ***** :P
Warlock



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Do or Do Not,..There Is No Spoon

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Offline CP5670

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Quote
CP: until you decide to accept that human life is important, we have nothing more to discuss. People who dont value human life, who do everything for personal gain, who care nothing for others are called sociopaths.


Whatever you call it, it is much more rational, and since (ideal) arguments are rational constructs in the first place, yours falls apart. :p Why the devil is human life so important when there are six billion on the planet that reproduce very rapidly? (not to mention that everyone is complaining about overpopulation) Sure, humans are a very important resource, but one in great supply too. This is like saying that chairs are inherently valuable, and that we should respect their existence; it simply makes no sense.

Anyway, the governments today just say this stuff to gain popular support because it is emotionally appealing; since they are still around and in place today, they must have learned the truth long ago. :D


Quote
Yes the world is not fair, but it SHOULD be fair. I act in the way that things SHOULD be, because if everyone accpets tryanny, greed, opportunism, then it will remain that way. You talk of how the sneakiest, most corrupt, most bloodthirsty country is the smartest one.


That is pretty much an unjustified assertion with a particular definition of "fair" attached to it. I can say that it SHOULD NOT be fair, and I would be just as correct as you are, so we do not get anywhere; we need a more objective and scientific way of looking at these things. And like I said in that other thread, we need to be fair to the chairs, so stop sitting on them. :D But really, there is no way to measure "should" other than what is, so if anything "should" be, it would already be so. Now you can act in this way it "should" be, but the world will still remain that way regardless of such mindsets, because people like you will not be able to compete with the "evil" guys (which will pretty much always exist as long as there is more than one human around) and will just get smashed after a while; a good real world example of this is Gandhi. Do you see my point? It's all about what produces the practical results, since in the end it is all meaningless anyway. And yes, those traits do indeed characterize the smart nations, because they are the ones who survive and come out victorious in the end; if you look a little carefully at history, you will find that the victors are the "evil" guys who manage to make the general population think that they are the good guys.

Quote
Well maybe, but I would rather have a country that is good and charitable and wise, you can always get more tanks.


Alright, but your country will be the one to get overrun by the ones with the tanks (and consequently, the wisdom). Would you rather be a fair and honorable but dead man or an evil and unjust winner? This is what today's conflict is all about, and I would take the latter choice any day.

Quote
there is absolutly no way Sadam is leaveing power alive


You tell him nicely to give up his weapons and leave the country. Or, you threaten him by tripling the number of inspectors! :D :D
« Last Edit: February 15, 2003, 08:48:39 pm by 296 »