Poll

Who would win?

Admiral Bosch and the Neo-Terran Front
31 (50%)
Admiral Thrawn and the Galactic Empire
31 (50%)

Total Members Voted: 26

Voting closed: March 08, 2003, 01:20:24 am

Author Topic: Thrawn VS. Bosch  (Read 15224 times)

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Offline WMCoolmon

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-C

 

Offline Galemp

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Quote
During its hunt for the Millennium Falcon, the star destroyer Avenger used its minor guns in the brim trench and on the hull to clearing asteroids in its path [TESB]. These observations indicate a lower limit on the energy delivered by a single blast from one of the smallest turbolasers. These were probably not full-power shots, but were merely intense enough to remove the asteroids with minimal trouble and waste. The asteroids were on the order of several meters to several dozens of metres in diameter, and composed chiefly of iron and similar metals. Realistically, the asteroid composition may have been silicate (eg. like granite or basalt) or dominated by iron-like metals.

The energy delivered by the turbolaser shot must raise the asteroid material from the initial temperature to the melting temperature (Tf), then supply the latent heat of fusion (Lf) to change the state frm solid to liquid, and then raise the temperature to a boiling point (Tv) and provide a latent heat of vaporisation (Lv). The boiling point is pressure-sensitive; in principle it might be close to the melting point because vaporisation of the exterior of the asteroid occurs in a nearly perfect vacuum.

Solid iron has a density 7870 kg/m³ and a heat capacity of 449 J/kg/K near room temperature, latent heat of fusion Lf=2.67x105 J/kg and Tf=1811K. The heat capacity increases with temperature, but we can use these figures to determine a lower limit on the amount of energy needed to melt a ball of iron in space. With a diameter of 10m, starting from 0°C (arbitrarily chosen, though the real initial temperature was probably lower) the energy required to melt an iron asteroid is > 3.94 TJ. This whole quantity of energy is delivered to the object within the duration of the turbolaser bolt, no more than a fifth of a second.

Asteroid diameters of 5m - 20m have been suggested [Stephen Comblidge, Peter Chung: private correspondence and newsgroup contributions] implying minimum melt energies of 0.49 TJ to 32 TJ respectively. This is comparable to the energy yield of a kiloton of TNT, 1 kt = 4.2 TJ. For further comparison, a small and primitive fission bomb might have an explosive yield of 20kt.


The latent energy of vaporisation may alone exceed the amount of energy needed to melt the body, let alone the amount needed to raise its temperature to the boiling point. In terrestrial conditions, the latent heat of vaporisation of a 10m diameter iron ball is approximately 25.8 TJ. Estimates of the melting plus vaporisation energy [by Eric Vandersall] are 32TJ and 260TJ respectively for 20m and 40m diameter asteroids at an initial temperature of about 206K. These are uncertain as detailed values, since the heating process process is non-equilibrium, supersonic and takes place in vacuo. Nevertheless, these results are plausibly indicative order-of-magnitude estimates. Therefore, considering the maximum observed fire rate of at least 1/s [in the asteroid field and in battles throughout the saga] we can estimate a lower limit on the power of each of the small anti-fighter point-defence cannons as between 250TW and 2000TW. The sixty-four visibly large dorsal heavy cannons must have considerably greater power than even this lower limit.


This guy has too much time on his hands.

But, if we consider that a BGreen is more powerful than the weaponry on the Lucifer, and that the Lucifer was able to annihilate entire cities from orbit, that's one heck of a weapon.
Additionally, shields don't block beam cannons.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2003, 01:03:44 am by 510 »
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Offline Knight Templar

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Yeah that whole section of theforce.net is about people with too much time.  

It kinda ruins star wars in how they try to rationalize star wars (:doubt: ) but its useful in nerd stuff :D

as for shields and beams, I heard somewhere that beams going through shields was actually a glitch in the game. *shrugs*I admit, it'd be kinda different.. how we view beams and all.
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Offline Sandwich

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Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
For Jade, I prefer one page out of the Essential Chronology Book, the one covering Spectre of the Past/Vision of the Future.


The gal on Spectre of the Past is Leia, so you must mean only Vision of the Future. But there she looks like a 18-yr old Mara Jade, not someone who's in her 30-40's. Whatever.

Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Some of the other ones they used for the card game were horrible too.. like Michael A. Stackpole played Corran.. he has like a Whiteman's (Receding hairline) Afro! and is kinda pudgy at that. Not What I had pegged as corran at all.


Argh - they were just being nice to him, but Stackpole was definitely all wrong for Corran. Corran should be more of a stark black haired George Clooney, but take off a dozen years or so.

Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
as for shields and beams, I heard somewhere that beams going through shields was actually a glitch in the game. *shrugs*I admit, it'd be kinda different.. how we view beams and all.


Glitch? Eh? Dig up that reference, will ya?
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"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 
Bosch would win, depending on if he had thr right amount of battlegroup size which is usually small anyways. This is his area of expertice.  

Lets face it. Admril Bosch was destined for his position as an Admril of leader of the NTF. No-one can stand in his way. The GTVA couldn't stop him what malkes you think Thrawl will have any affect on him.

All of the GTVA was on look out for him and Bosch was always 1 step ahead.....Always predicting his enemies moves as they were rehersed.

Sorry guys. Admril Bosch will best any admril in comand of a starship. :eek2:



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Offline Sandwich

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Originally posted by SlipStream
.....Always predicting his enemies moves as they were rehersed.



Funny, that's exactly what made Thrawn so cool... and so lethal. :D
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"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Petrarch of the VBB

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You are missing the most important point!

Thrawn isn't Human and yet he managed to become a Grand Admiral in the xenophobic empire. This proves that he is the greatest admiral of all time.

Oh, and he looks far more evil than Bosch.

 

Offline Galemp

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But Bosch is so dark and mysterious... even when we see him face to face (in the head animation) he's shadowy. For all we know he could have two-inch fangs.
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Offline Stunaep

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Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar


EDIT: Well with the poll, The Empire would 0wn the NTF anyday. BGreens don't mean anything against 100 Turbolaser Banks and Tie Bombers. Don't forget, ISD's have shield generators.

UNwillingly wandering into the world of cross-universing: Pre 3.5 beams can penetrate shields.
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Offline Unknown Target

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Bosch has the shivans ;7

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Quote
Originally posted by Sandwich


The gal on Spectre of the Past is Leia, so you must mean only Vision of the Future. But there she looks like a 18-yr old Mara Jade, not someone who's in her 30-40's. Whatever.



______________________________________________


Glitch? Eh? Dig up that reference, will ya?


I meant in the essential chronology. Granted its not in color I don't think, but it looks the best to me.

and um I think I heard it by someone from here but on the VWBB a few weeks ago. I'll go look for it.


Quote
Originally posted by Stunaep

UNwillingly wandering into the world of cross-universing: Pre 3.5 beams can penetrate shields.


Probably shoulda put "for all we know" at the beggining.. Either way, at the height of the NTF's power, they had one fleet of ships. At the Height of thrawns power, he had the entire imperial fleet (which at one time had at least 25,000 ISD's in it) along with the Katana fleet and much more.

Thrawn is just as good, if not better than Bosch IMO, and with their fleet sizes, there isn't much way Bosch could win.
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Offline Galemp

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Well, if you want to drag in the entire Imperial fleet... why not a few Shivans as well? Let's see how much that ISD likes four BFReds.
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Offline Knight Templar

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But the arguement is Admiral Thrawn and the Galactic Empire vs Bosch and the Neo-Terran Front. You asked for it yourself. :p


still it would be those ISD's :p
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Buddies... There are quite a few factors that would ensure a total Thrawn victory

a) He has a vastly superior ship, the ISD1 Chimaera at his command.  This thing has 60 Ion cannons and 60 Turbolasers at its command for a total of 120 weapons.  The Iceni has less than 30 weapons on it.  Furthermore, the Chimaera has shields capable of withstanding multipe blasts with the yeild of hundreds of gigatons.  The Episode II ICS states that the MEDIUM TURBOLASER on the Acclamator TRANSPORT SHIP is 200 Gigatons per shot.  The main guns on the ISD, a battlecruiser will obviously be much higher than 200GT per shot and according to official and cannon evidence of the movies, turbolasers can shoot once every second or so.  Lets not forget that an ISD can perform a Base Delta Zero strike and reduce the surface of a planet to molten slag.  The Sathanas has 1,000,000 hitpoints, or 1600GT, which means an ISD will kill it in 8 hits.  The FS1 tech room says Harbinger bombs are 5GT or 5000MT. They do 3200 damage (from ships.tbl), meaning 1 damage point is 1.6MT. A BFRed is rated at 2100 damage points. Beams do this damage around every 1/6 of a second, meaning the BFRed does 12,600 per second or 20.2GT. A Sathanas has 4 BFReds, giving it a 80.8GT per second volley with all four guns (560GT for the 7 second duration).  Even if they could penetrate shields, beams would do only superficial damage to the ISD's hull.
Plus, GTVA ships can only target vessels at maximum 10km.  SW ships can hit you from over 50,000km away.

b)TIE fighters and bombers are 1000 times faster than FS fighters and they would perform strafing runs so fast that AAA would have trouble targeting them.  They can also swarm the Iceni with overwheming numbers.  TIE lasers are in the kilotonnage range and are vastly superior to FS fighter lasers.

c)The ISD's hyperspace capabilities allows it to appear at will in any GTVA system regardless of jump nodes and it can use its vastly superior sensors to detect ships preparing for an ambush across a solar system.  A mere nebula disrupted the sensors on the GTVA fleet.  In the book Star by Star, the Falcon's, a civilian ship, sensors were able to track the happenings of a battle in a nearby system with no difficulty at all.

d)If we bring in the Shivans, they still can't compare to the Empire.  A fleet of 80 Sathanases was considered incredulously huge by GTVA tacticians.  The pathetic New Republic was easily able to bring 900 ships to attack the YV fleet at Reecee.

c)maneuverability:  FS ships are some of the slowest in Si-Fi.  They for some odd reason have a finite speed, not acceleration and this speed is quite slow, below escape velocity (around 216 km/h = 60m/s like the HercII).  Even if we replace max speed with max acceleration in Gs, its still pales in comparison with SW or even real life (FS ships are slower than the modern space shuttle).  SW capships, according to the Episode II Incredible Cross Sections, can reach speeds of about 16,000 km/h in atmospheres and about 3,500G acceleration in space.  Freespace capships have shown to be very sluggish in their maneuvers.  While the ISD is slightly sluggish by SW standards, Thrawn would literally fly circles around Bosch and I bet while the bridge crew was dancing to "Can't touch this" too.

I conclude that Thrawn would thrououghly whip Bocsh and the entire Shivan race's booty
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Offline Knight Templar

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Although I agree with you, where the hell did you get your hull stats for FS ships and Weapons stats for the BFRed? :wtf:
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Offline DragonClaw

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FFS!!!

Why don't we match skill with skill?!?!?!

Don't take ships,etc into the arguments, just tactical skill.

Give both sides the same ships, the same weapons, same everything, who would win?

I'd have to saw Thrawn... Thrawn was a complete tactical genius. He knew what he wanted(to win) and he knew how to do it. Thrawn would have taken over the Galaxy if it wasn't for Pellaeon backstabbing him. In the books, Thrawn is practically invincible... he won even with vasty outnumbered forces if I remember correctly.

And Bosch? Pffft... You have NO evidence of ANY tactical genius. Throwing himself into slavery of the shivans? Haha! Sure, he ran a fleet... but what did he do? He always ran away! Wimp...


Thrawn ownz j00! Period.

 

Offline Grey Wolf

Quote
Originally posted by Knight Templar
Although I agree with you, where the hell did you get your hull stats for FS ships and Weapons stats for the BFRed? :wtf:
He got it by using the stupid Tech Room stats to approximate the damage. Of course, the Tech Room disagrees with itself over how much one point of damage is. Case in point: MX-50 vs. Harbinger
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Offline Anaz

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bosch...

not even thrawn can resist the power of spacecrack™ and bosch beer™
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Offline Galemp

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Quote
Originally posted by GrandAdmiralAbaht
Buddies... There are quite a few factors that would ensure a total Thrawn victory

*snip*



I guess you can't compete with 10,000 years of space technology.

Okay then! Bosch vs. Thrawn... in a barroom brawl. :p
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Offline Alikchi

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Bosch has Laser Beam Eyes. No contest.

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