[CP5670]

D). There has never been a war like this. The closest thing to this is Vietnam, and that wasn't a real success. It had quite some massacres on both sides.... Exactly what i suspect that will happen here.

Yes there has been something exactly like this, the 1991 Persian gulf war; same enemy, same location, doubled enemy forces, etc. and that was one of the most one-sided large scale victories in US military history. Besides, look at my other post again; if that was really your point of view, you wouldn't be telling anyone, would you?

I totally agree that Saddam has to go. But the way the US is handling this is absurd. They are causing a breakdown in the intercontinental community. Russian, China AND France were ready to put in their veto right. Thats why Bush never put the new resolutioin on the table. It'd create "problems" or his war. This is a war that affects us ALL. The US has no right to bypass the opinion of all other nations.

The US, and anyone else, has every right to do anything they please if they have the capability to do it, and so they are doing it. If you don't like it, well, too bad. This "international community" is one of the worst oxymorons ever invented (and if you are studying history, you should know this better than anyone else), so it's about time that people are waking up to what the world is really like.

I keep hearing people saying this is going to be a bloody horror then I hear people saying that they keep hearing the same things and point out that the same things have been said for the last ten years and we have yet to encounter one.
but, over the last year or so I think this has gone from cake walk to (probable) blood bath due mostly to the amount of time that has been aforded Sadam,

That is another thing to keep in mind. Hussein has gotten seven months to prepare and the harsh Iraqi summer desert climate has set in. This is exactly why the EU wanted to delay the US all this time, and we fell into their trap. It still probably will not be that hard since there are numerous other factors working toward the Americans' advantage, but it could definitely have been easier.

[Terorist]

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2003/03/20030317-7.html - The transcript of Bush's latest... ...show.

Bush: "Do not destroy oil wells" - Could you possibly get more obvious?
Bush: "... it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda." - Spot the ludicrous lie. Last I heard, Al Qaeda hated Iraq...
(And americans did originally train Bin Laden, how did they suddenly become friends in their books? Of course, they didn't, it's just something qute to accuse them about. Sinks in to the panic-influenced masses perfectly... Rest of the world will never buy it, but they don't matter to them anyway.)

I fully agree with Tiara. I don't expect them to get it over in a week, and the whole situation will not be resolved for a very long time - this adventure of theirs will quite probably wreak havoc in global politics and the middle east situation for years to come. Saddam needs to be overthrown, but such things can never be accomplished succesfully by a totally outside force. It has to be their own people - a colonialistic outsider can't create a fully working government in Iraq. Sure, they (the people of Iraq) can and should be supported when possible, but an illegal invasion like this... sigh. What next, will they march in North Korea too, and then every single dictatorship on the face of the planet? Where does it end? (Of course, they won't - they don't have oil or any other resources worth acquiring.)

[Tiara]

Originally posted by Bobboau
I think only France was _going to_ use there veto, Russia and China probly would have if there was any need to (france is doing it already so why bother) but they were (at least officaly) open to negotiations.

Nope, Russia said they'd use him. And China is not a country that will support the US above Russia.

I keep hearing people saying this is going to be a bloody horror then I hear people saying that they keep hearing the same things and point out that the same things have been said for the last ten years and we have yet to encounter one.
but, over the last year or so I think this has gone from cake walk to (probable) blood bath due mostly to the amount of time that has been aforded Sadam,
I realy don't know wich way it's going to land, and thats just it, nobody knows how this is going to turn out.

And whos fault is it we are now in this mess? Family Bush. Saddam shouldn't be in power anymore ten years ago.

And I hear you people talk about Iraq (Not all people mind you) as if they have any clue on whats really happening. At least I have investigated it myself and know something about Iraqi capabilities.

Yes, Iraq is outnumbered BY FAR. But always remember that it is their ground, their belief they are fighting for, Saddam is a very clever man when it comes to these situations.

- After the US take Basra the Iraqi's will use the "scorched Earth"tactic (probably) and burn any bridge in the south. With Basra surrounded by rivers, it will slow down US advancements.
- Oil fields with burn, thus throwing any infra red missile off course. This limits the US striking ability.
- All major cities have anti-air defenses.
- Citizens have been armed
- Volunteer training camps for fanatics have been set up around Bagdad, kirkoesk, etc. (Don't underestimate fanatics)
- A general that is known to uyse gas attacks is stationed in the noprth at a key posistion.

I could go on and on and on with this list, but this will get nasty. The US shouldn't have done this. they practically tore down the international community, and will now cause many deaths. More then Saddam would cause in 10 years.
 
but you know I think I have prepared for the worst,
I just want to be far enough from the epicenter of the counter atack that I can live long enough to hear all the people say
"oops, I guess he did have them after all"
if that is the last thing I hear I will die happy

Typical egocentric behaviour. You are ok with the war cause you are not inb it. If you were an innocent Iraqi citizen you'd be crying for peace right now or fleeing to Iran.

Also, if now every single moslim terrorist movement will scramble theree bombs on Times Square its the US own dumb fault.

[Terorist]

Robin Cook said it well; if the invasion is firstly made possible by the fact that Saddam Hussein is now weak in military terms, how can they at the same time claim he's a threat and must be attacked?

Iraq has no means whatsoever to threaten U.S., so the war simply means just the latest reality TV show to fill the american televisions. Those who cheer and shout for war aren't touched by it in any way. If there was *any* threat whatsoever to american people, I wouldn't criticize one bit, but this circus is simply an illegal invasion in violation of every international agreement ever made. Those who think US can do whatever they please are unbelievably naive - the rest of the world exists and it's big (contrary to what american kids seem to be taught in school). Bush administration is taking the world on an express elevator to hell.

[Falcon X]

Okay a ton of things to reply to...

"(And americans did originally train Bin Laden, how did they suddenly become friends in their books? Of course, they didn't, it's just something qute to accuse them about. Sinks in to the panic-influenced masses perfectly... Rest of the world will never buy it, but they don't matter to them anyway.)"

Did you see the Iran-Contra Senate hearing with Oliver North testifying?  For maybe a second we trained him but we dumped him.  Way too looney and Oly recognized it.  In that hearing North said we should eliminate him as soon as possible.  The senator that questioned him laughed at that... guess who it was... Al Gore.

Tiara:  Bush (sr) stopped because of the UN charter.  We did what the UN wanted.  We stopped then... we thought that the UN could handle it... wrong.  Tell me how long does it take a country to disarm?  Just answer that.  Now I'm not talking about "hunts" for weapons, I'm talking about honest disarment.

I respect people's opinions about how this will be bloody and long... but look back at the gulf war... that's what they said then too.  I'm not saying it most definetly won't be, but I highly doubt it.  This is not vietnam.  We are not going half assed.  We're using everything.  (Linebacker I and II when used made N. Vietnam come crawling back to the peace table.  That's the only time we took the gloves off.)

[Falcon X]

"Iraq has no means whatsoever to threaten U.S., so the war simply means just the latest reality TV show to fill the american televisions. Those who cheer and shout for war aren't touched by it in any way. If there was *any* threat whatsoever to american people, I wouldn't criticize one bit, but this circus is simply an illegal invasion in violation of every international agreement ever made. Those who think US can do whatever they please are unbelievably naive - the rest of the world exists and it's big (contrary to what american kids seem to be taught in school). Bush administration is taking the world on an express elevator to hell. "

IF you read international law, resolutions, and the gulf war peace treaty... we have the full legal right to do this.

"Those who think US can do whatever they please are unbelievably naive - the rest of the world exists and it's big "

Yeah we're dumb asses.  That's why everyone usually comes here for college.... and about 40% R&D is done by us... yeah we're just morons.  Congratulations Mr. Jealous.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Terorist
Bush: "Do not destroy oil wells" - Could you possibly get more obvious?

You hear what you want to hear. The reason Bush said this was that the oil fields belong to the Iraqi people, and he doesn't want them to be torched because it'll make it that much harder to rebuild Iraq.

Bush: "... it has aided, trained and harbored terrorists, including operatives of al Qaeda." - Spot the ludicrous lie. Last I heard, Al Qaeda hated Iraq...

Who do you trust to tell the truth - al Qaeda or Bush?  Both al Qaeda and Iraq will say anything if it furthers their own ends.

[Bobboau]

"And whos fault is it we are now in this mess? Family Bush. Saddam shouldn't be in power anymore ten years ago."

"Saddam shouldn't be in power anymore ten years ago"
yes, you are absolutly right,
I think a more corect statment has never been said in this forums history
but I think we should look into what the situation in the UN was to place blaim, from what I remember it was a mixture of Bush pussing out and desperate to not have a ten year long problem ( ), the UN mandate not calling for it, and the coalition not suporting it, I was 9 at the time so my first hand memories arn't very good

"- After the US take Basra the Iraqi's will use the "scorched Earth"tactic (probably) and burn any bridge in the south. With Basra surrounded by rivers, it will slow down US advancements."
sounds about right

"- Oil fields with burn, thus throwing any infra red missile off course. This limits the US striking ability."
most of our bombs are JDAMs they use GPS, so you're right but wrong(ish)

"- All major cities have anti-air defenses."
F-117, B2, cruse missle

"- Citizens have been armed"
and will probly shoot anyhting that threatens them, wich would include Sadams army, I doubt they are going to be itching to make themselves into valid military targets, but who knows maybe they will

"- Volunteer training camps for fanatics have been set up around Bagdad, kirkoesk, etc. (Don't underestimate fanatics)"
first off, agreed, fully,
second, I thought Sadam didn't suport fanatics/terrorists

"- A general that is known to uyse gas attacks is stationed in the noprth at a key posistion."
yup, bloody

"More then Saddam would cause in 10 years."
will it be more than he has killed in the last ten?

"Typical egocentric behaviour..."
what I said I expect to get hit back, I said I have prepaired for this to get personal to me, I don't think a suburb of St. Louis is a real prime terror target, but I have many famely members that fly /are in the military/live in big cities, and I live less than ten miles from Scott AFB, I go to school within I think about a mile, it is (remotely) posable that I could get killed,
what is so important about SAFB you may ask? well it is our national air mobility comand, the logistic center of the air force, I don't realy think Sadam will be looking for good military targets but if he was this would be a good one.
hell, I could get offed by a suicide bomber, wich I expect to start showing up in every major (and some minor) US city

"Also, if now every single moslim terrorist movement will scramble theree bombs on Times Square its the US own dumb fault."
in a sence you are right, this is a war, that is the only way they can hurt us, but if they do that you can bet it won't make us back down
I don't think I would be crying, probly ether getting the hell out of Baghdad or getting everyone together and getting redy shoot anyhting that tries to enter my home be it Iraqi or American

also it may be of note I have heard there are a number of fairly promenent Islamic clairics in suport of us, maybe I heard wrong, maybe this is the begining of a change, maybe they signed there own death warents

[Bobboau]

"Who do you trust to tell the truth - al Qaeda or Bush? Both al Qaeda and Iraq will say anything if it furthers their own ends."
the difernce is that Bush's staments are scrutinised and looked over by millions, no billions of people, all looking for his lies

[CP5670]

Alright, I'm looking for a fight here. let's go!

Sure, they (the people of Iraq) can and should be supported when possible, but an illegal invasion like this... sigh. What next, will they march in North Korea too, and then every single dictatorship on the face of the planet? Where does it end?

When the world has been conquered, of course. oh, and it is quite legal, because we say so.

And whos fault is it we are now in this mess? Family Bush. Saddam shouldn't be in power anymore ten years ago.

Indeed, so they are now merely correcting that error. After making a mistake, is it better to recognize and correct it or keep it that way? These anti-war arguments are so inconsistent.

Yes, Iraq is outnumbered BY FAR. But always remember that it is their ground, their belief they are fighting for, Saddam is a very clever man when it comes to these situations.

Then why didn't he do better in 1991? He made a mess out of the attack from his point of view and could definitely have utilized his forces much more effectively, even if he had not quite won; what kind of fool lines up his tanks and men in the open desert for defense, even contrary to all of the recommendations of his generals?

Hussein is not a very smart man (if he had any sense, he would have left the country long ago and would be operating things remotely behind the scenes), but his subordinates certainly are, so that will not be much of an asset to the US.

- After the US take Basra the Iraqi's will use the "scorched Earth"tactic (probably) and burn any bridge in the south. With Basra surrounded by rivers, it will slow down US advancements.
- Oil fields with burn, thus throwing any infra red missile off course. This limits the US striking ability.
- All major cities have anti-air defenses.
- Citizens have been armed
- Volunteer training camps for fanatics have been set up around Bagdad, kirkoesk, etc. (Don't underestimate fanatics)
- A general that is known to uyse gas attacks is stationed in the noprth at a key posistion.

- Why would the US take all of its men to one city so to be cut off like that? come on, they are not that stupid.
- This only occurs with traditional heat-seeker projectiles; most of the larger types are guided to their destinations by geosynchronous satellites.
- These aren't very effective against cruise missiles.
- See earlier post; what is this, some sort of jacquerie?
- That's exactly what they said before Afghanistan; these are not much of a match for tech.
- This is the main credible threat I see, which is why all of the US soldiers have oxygen masks in such an event.

I could go on and on and on with this list, but this will get nasty. The US shouldn't have done this. they practically tore down the international community, and will now cause many deaths. More then Saddam would cause in 10 years.

once again, international community = contradiction in terms.

Also, if now every single moslim terrorist movement will scramble theree bombs on Times Square its the US own dumb fault.

That is to be expected at some point regardless of any war; this will not do anything but instigate the incidents, and it's best to get them over with when you are prepared for them. Do you think that the way to stop these guys is to simply do nothing and hope that they will improve? Ask Gandhi about that.

Typical egocentric behaviour. You are ok with the war cause you are not inb it. If you were an innocent Iraqi citizen you'd be crying for peace right now or fleeing to Iran.

That would also be equally egocentric behavior. We are talking about this from the viewpoint of the US as a whole; it does indeed make sense for them to do this for their own purposes, just as it makes sense for Iraq to defend their nation and regime, once again for their own purposes.

Robin Cook said it well; if the invasion is firstly made possible by the fact that Saddam Hussein is now weak in military terms, how can they at the same time claim he's a threat and must be attacked?

He can be a threat in one way while being vulnerable to something else, you know (suppose he has one nuke and one ICBM to move it around; he cannot defend his own nation with that, but he can certainly attack others). But actually, it is not certain that he is a threat right now, only a possibility; the certainty is in his becoming a threat in the future. There is no point in taking such a chance here when there is little to lose; as Bush put it (one of the few sensible things he said yesterday), the costs of inaction are greater than the costs of action.

If there was *any* threat whatsoever to american people, I wouldn't criticize one bit, but this circus is simply an illegal invasion in violation of every international agreement ever made.  

For the third time, any "international agreement" = teh suck.

Those who think US can do whatever they please are unbelievably naive - the rest of the world exists and it's big (contrary to what american kids seem to be taught in school).

I wouldn't be talking about being naive; those who use things like "international agreements" in their arguments should look in the mirror for naiveness. The rest of the world exists and it's big, but it is not united at the moment; if it does become so, we can worry about it then. If anyone wants to try and directly stop us, nobody is standing in their way, so why is nobody doing that? The reason is that the US is powerful at the moment, so they need to weaken it first in more subtle ways.

[Terorist]

A reply to Falcon X.
I can't possibly know how long it would take to disarm Iraq. I'm not an expert on that field and won't claim anything (unlike you who seem to think there is no other way than force). Sure, the disarming has been going on for years and has had problems, but it is working nevertheless. Bush administration has been claiming they still have lots of weapons of mass destruction, but can't provide a shred of evidence. Neither side can claim moral high ground here, and no way there's a reason for invasion!

About the legality... Read this article. I hope you're not surprised when others say you don't have a legitimate reason to start a war.

What was that about "dumb-asses"? Not 'everyone' goes there for college either. Where did you get that R&D figure from? I wasn't calling anyone moron or using other such insults. Let's try to keep this clean, shall we?

Goober5000:
"Who do you trust to tell the truth - al Qaeda or Bush? Both al Qaeda and Iraq will say anything if it furthers their own ends."
I trust... neither! Both will lie whenever they want to! Which one do you trust? Bush, simply because he's your leader? Give me a break... Do a little research on that specific matter, you'll find out the truth soon enough. Don't listen to me, Bush or any other side, just look at the facts and history!

[CP5670]

About the legality... Read this article. I hope you're not surprised when others say you don't have a legitimate reason to start a war.

We do now: a shivan told Bush to do so in a dream. You cannot say anything now.

[Bobboau]

I beleve this comment
"(contrary to what american kids seem to be taught in school)."
is what implied the all americans are stupid dumbasses
though I will give you that our (public grade) schools are crap

[Falcon X]

Originally posted by Terorist
A reply to Falcon X.
I can't possibly know how long it would take to disarm Iraq. I'm not an expert on that field and won't claim anything (unlike you who seem to think there is no other way than force). Sure, the disarming has been going on for years and has had problems, but it is working nevertheless. Bush administration has been claiming they still have lots of weapons of mass destruction, but can't provide a shred of evidence. Neither side can claim moral high ground here, and no way there's a reason for invasion!

About the legality... Read this article. I hope you're not surprised when others say you don't have a legitimate reason to start a war.

What was that about "dumb-asses"? Not 'everyone' goes there for college either. Where did you get that R&D figure from? I wasn't calling anyone moron or using other such insults. Let's try to keep this clean, shall we?

Goober5000:
"Who do you trust to tell the truth - al Qaeda or Bush? Both al Qaeda and Iraq will say anything if it furthers their own ends."
I trust... neither! Both will lie whenever they want to! Which one do you trust? Bush, simply because he's your leader? Give me a break... Do a little research on that specific matter, you'll find out the truth soon enough. Don't listen to me, Bush or any other side, just look at the facts and history!

If you wish to keep it clean than please refrain from the "lazy stupid americans" view.

Hmm that article didn't do anything for me.  IT puzzles me that everyone loves bosnia and kosovo when we didn't even go to the UN and we interdicted in something we had no business in.  Should we have?  Probably yes.  

Bush said it clearly... Iraq has not complied with the ceace-fire.  That's true even your article says that.

One more thing, just because we're in the UN doesn't mean we lose our sovergnity.

In many respects Europe tries to take the moral high ground all the time.  We're doing this wrong, or that... we may be but could you guys be?  

I believe the British Foreign Minister put this best, "the role of the inspectors should not be detectives, but auditors."  He is not complying and will not comply.  You know that.  That is cause for war.  Sure Hitler wasn't a threat when he took the Rheinland... "Peace in our time."  I love that one.

[CP5670]

That is the commonly held view in much of Europe actually, but it doesn't really matter; although the public school systems are terrible, the US research facilities are the ones producing the results.

[Falcon X]

Originally posted by CP5670
That is the commonly held view in much of Europe actually, but it doesn't really matter; although the public school systems are terrible, the US research facilities are the ones producing the results.

Not all public schools are terrible.  I and many others actually had a good one.

[Bobboau]

and that article is hardly what I would call conclucive, all it realy says is some conties disagree with our interpetation of the situation, and that we have been sparing with some contries over the interpetation 1441

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Falcon X


Not all public schools are terrible.  I and many others actually had a good one.

you must have gotten REAL lucky
I was in three or four of them and I still have pyhcological damage.
(probly not a good thing to say that you are pyhcologicaly damaged in the middle of a debate thread were my mental competency will be called dinto question... oh, well :wink:  )

[Terorist]

CP5670: You talk about not recognizing any international organization or treaty. That is so clearly a troll that I'm not going to go there... There is this thing called the UN that should be allowed to work, but U.S. won't let them, and now they're going to war on their own.

Bobboau and others: If my lines in any way came across as insults to american intelligence, I apologize. The latest line on that simply meant that they don't seem to receive enough information about the world - ignorance has nothing to do with being smart or dumb. I can only hope CP5670 will some day learn more about international relations... His comments leave me confused and conserned for him. (I hope it's just his young age - and no offence there either!)

I'm not looking for a fight, I don't have the time or any desire to put up with flames or heated arguments. I've stated my opinions, hopefully clearly enough, and will let them speak for themselves. I'll post again if something comes up and I check this thread (there's a lot going on right now and there simply are better places to spend my time on this subject - expect me when you see me).

[Bobboau]

the scary thing is that is CP5670 sincere belefes, he denies all morality as being basicly wishfull thinking, and consiters sitting in his room doing math problems to be by far preferable to going out and haveing some sort of contact with girls.
I must say that I fully respect but utterly disagree with his interpetations as haveing a fundemental flaw, but we have had this discusion and I would rather we stayed on the topic of Iraq, if CP5670 wishes to discus this again he can make another topic