[Galemp]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Beams have to pierce shields by default for [V] campaign balance. No question.

[Shrike]

You think your puny fight shields can withstand the awesome power of our beam weapons?  I think not!

[Exarch]

Just a flag in FRED so it can be decided upon by the mission designer But default should definitely be shield piercing to preserve balance for all campaigns that have already been released, and which rely to a large degree on AAA beams to keep strike missions challenging.

[Sesquipedalian]

I would point out that the problem is not that we don't want beams to damage shields, but that we don't want the hull not to be damaged.  Therefore, my proposed solution:




Have the beams both damage the hull directly and take down shields, simultaneously.




We get what we want, shields damaged by beams, without giving up anything we want to keep insofar as hull damage is concerned.  And I don't think this will have a major effect on play balance: sure it will make things a bit harder, but not that much, especially if the beam effect on shields is currently so weak as to cause this issue to come into existence in the first place.

Why make big problems out of little problems?

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
i think Petrarch is confused. By Peirce, we mean go through, without damaging shields.

You're right. I meant that they should pierce the shields. I was very tired and pissed off last night, and could not think straight. Hence the error in my siggy, which has now been fix0red.

[Razor]

Is this a multiple choice because of pie?

[beatspete]

Whats the point in beams that cant harm you unless you have no shields left? AAA beams should damage shields (and hull), and hence so should their big brothers - cap ship beams.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Are you trying to say that beams should wear away your sheilds, and then damage the hull, or damage them both at once?

[Sesquipedalian]

He is saying the same thing as I, Petrarch: simultaneous damage of both hull and shields.

[hobnob1978]

Are we talking about ShipToShipBeams or AntiFighterBeams`s?


Antifighter beams= they do in FS2 standard and made it hard to engage the big ships. Was an improvement, if they were a little over accurate against you.

Anti Cap ship beams= I always thought that the beam cannons on the GTVA ships were designed to be able to attack the Lucifer, hence they must penetrate THROUGH shields to do so.


So therefore I think yes beams should penetrate all shields.

[Exarch]

Fighter beams, though at the moment I think it applies to both types. And the Sathanas isn't shielded, assume you must be thinking of the Lucifer There's an interesting thought though - Lucifer shield was immune to all damage at the time of FS1, but strictly speaking we don't know if that applied to beam weapons as well, as back then noone had any to attack it with. So then the question is, could/should beams (in theory) penetrate or perhaps just damage Lucifer shields?

[hobnob1978]

ooops  I see the error, thanks.

have changed it now.

[Knight Templar]

if they did both, that'd really suck. And they'd be overly powerfull.

Just stick with making it mission designers choice. That way, if you want to ***** about having it the new way, you can just as easily have it.

I don't know why they changed it anyways in the first place. Improving upon the game is good, but changing the actual play should be less avoided, or at least, if it is changed, make it selectable and not forced.

[Sesquipedalian]

Well, beams were developed to combat the Lucifer, not necessarily to be able to pass right through its shields.  It was never tested whether beams would pass through the Lucifer's shields, so we cannot say.  But to my mind, it only makes sense that beams would affect shields: both were, after all, originally Shivan technology, and secondly, if we leave aside the fact that fighter lasers in FS2 have been turned into little floating space-blobs for purposes of gameplay, there is no fundamental difference between fighter lasers and beam lasers.  The only difference is the amount of energy involved.  

In the case of a fighter, therefore, a beam should be able to overwhelm shields pretty quickly and penetrate to the hull even before the shield itself has fallen, but it will still be battering the shield too.  In the Lucifer's case, it is harder to say whether its shields could completely stop beams and therefore have to be taken down first.  The Lucy's shields were so extremely powerful compared to fighter shields that they may have been able to absorb all the energy bombarding them even from a beam cannon, but perhaps not.  If not, then in that case the situation for the Lucifer would be comparable to that of the fighters, with the shield having to deal with so much energy that it couldn't catch it all and some would get by to the hull.

[Sesquipedalian]

Originally posted by Knight Templar
if they did both, that'd really suck. And they'd be overly powerfull.

How would that "suck"?  And no, it wouldn't be overly powerful: if the damage to shields were really that significant, this debate wouldn't be here to begin with.

[Knight Templar]

If aaa beams did damage to shields and hull simultaneously, I'd think that'd make them at least twice as powerfull as they are now. Escepcially when you're flying against, say a Deimos and you're already getting eaten by flak cannons, then instead of getting tossed around and spanked by the aaa guns while they're throwing shards of flak at you, you get thrown around, spanked, and your clothes ripped off?

At least make whatever you decide optional...

[Sesquipedalian]

AAA beams used to be a threat but now you can fly straight at a Deimos, beams all over you, and not even bother to jink.

 That doesn't sound like a very significant shield damage effect, and certainly not "twice as powerful."  If they were twice as powerful as a result of my proposal, that would mean that they are just as powerful when damaging shields as they are when passing through them, and the whole debate would be moot! No, what will happen with my proposal is that they will be a little bit more powerful, and not enough to throw off play balance.

[Sesquipedalian]

Okay, since I am quite serious about my proposal, I've done the math for it to see how it would pan out.  Here are my results:

All AAA beams apply damage to hull and shields at an equal rate, so the difference in how powerful an AAA is against a fighter with or without shield piercing is dependent on the shields of the fighter.  So I took a sample set of ships from the table to see how they would be affected by my proposal.

Seth:
580 shields
280 HP
860 Total
Therefore, the beam is 1.32 times as powerful against a Seth as before.

Myrmidon:
390 shields
290 HP
680 Total
Therefore, the beam is 1.42 times as powerful against the Myrmidon as before.

Boanerges:
850 shields
325 HP
1175 Total
Therefore, the beam is 1.27 times as powerful against the Boanerges as before.

Mara:
620 shields
200 HP
820 Total
Therefore, the beam is 1.24 times as powerful against the Mara as before.

Seraphim:
1600 shields
500 HP
2100 Total
Therefore, the beam is 1.31 times as powerful against the Seraphim as before.

By the above sample set, my proposal will increase the brute effectiveness of AAA beams to an average of 131% of their original level.

HOWEVER, that number is somewhat misleading.  An AAA will kill the fighter no more quickly or slowly than before.  It means only that for a short time after being hit by the beam, the fighter will be more open to fighter fire from others.  But since all fighters are affected in this way, in exact proportion to their individual number of shield hit points, the overall play balance remains UNCHANGED.

[Grey Wolf]

You know, if you don't like the fact it doesn't pierce shields, you could just increase the shield damage multiplier to 20 or something and have it rip down shields virtually instantly.

Personally, I like the idea of having the shields be affected by the beams. It makes it possible to mod many ships which didn't work quite right before (any ST ships), and also, allows more concepts for modding, such as pure anti-hull beams, and ships designed to take down a capship's shields quickly so bombers can begin their attack runs.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Well, beams were developed to combat the Lucifer, not necessarily to be able to pass right through its shields.  It was never tested whether beams would pass through the Lucifer's shields, so we cannot say.  But to my mind, it only makes sense that beams would affect shields: both were, after all, originally Shivan technology, and secondly, if we leave aside the fact that fighter lasers in FS2 have been turned into little floating space-blobs for purposes of gameplay, there is no fundamental difference between fighter lasers and beam lasers.  The only difference is the amount of energy involved.  

In the case of a fighter, therefore, a beam should be able to overwhelm shields pretty quickly and penetrate to the hull even before the shield itself has fallen, but it will still be battering the shield too.  In the Lucifer's case, it is harder to say whether its shields could completely stop beams and therefore have to be taken down first.  The Lucy's shields were so extremely powerful compared to fighter shields that they may have been able to absorb all the energy bombarding them even from a beam cannon, but perhaps not.  If not, then in that case the situation for the Lucifer would be comparable to that of the fighters, with the shield having to deal with so much energy that it couldn't catch it all and some would get by to the hull.

Very interesting idea.  If this was implemented, we could say that the beam was concentrating so much energy over such a small area that the shields couldn't keep up, hence why beams tend to "penetrate" shields.  More diffused energy weapons can be stopped, but beams can't.

Originally posted by Razor
Is this a multiple choice because of pie?