[Inquisitor]

Just a reminder.

3.5.1 had issues, it also (well, 3.5 did) had a few lines of new code.

PLEASE be patient with us. We're doing this as much for ourselves as for you, and it doesn't help if you treat us like the VBB treated Volition.

No, this is not directed at anyone in particular, and nothing specific has happened recently. It's a culmination of things and a trend I am noticing.

The best way to influence the direction of this project is to get involved. Post bugs (on Bugzilla, please), learn C++, help organize new table specs, volunteer to help update the site, help write the readme, etc.

The WORST way to influence the direction of this project is to post complaints, demand features, and complain about implementation details after they have been discussed and implemented.

I have been an absentee landlord for the last 2 weeks, and I apologize for that, sometimes my much vaunted time management explodes, and I have to travel to god-forsaken places like Provo, Utah, and i get behind.

I just want to nip any VBB flavored complaining before it gets out of hand. Think about that when you word your next request.

We're an active community development project, and the source code is fully available to everyone here. New things will get added, old things will break. We need to work together to find and fix them

Thanks

[CP5670]

What is this Bugzilla thing? I think I have seen a couple of bugs that I could report with that...

[karajorma]

One of the main problems with the SCP is that most people don`t hang out on this forum since it's percieved as a hang out for coders rather than a discussion area like the Modding forum.

The result is that many people who post on other forums avoid this one, miss out the discussions about implementations and then only can complain once they've actually got hold of the release and notice that something important was changed (a good example of this was the beams piercing shields bit from earlier).

As for Bugzilla the link from the SCP page is buried somewhere down in the links  and even if you do try to use it Bugzilla itself is awfully intimidating for some average Joe who just wants to report a that his missiles suddenly don`t have trails.

Anyway the fact is that I`m sure that I speak for most of the community when I say that we all respect the work you guys are doing and thing that you are doing a great job.

[diamondgeezer]

Thing about Buzilla, apart from the clunky interface, is that you're not sure whether anyone's reading your reports. Now, obviously you guys do read them because otherwise what would be the point? But we know that if we post bugs in here, we at least get an aknowledgement and we get to see the problem discussed.

Perhaps there could be a system where by an email is dispatched when a programmer reads a Bugzill report, letting the reporter know that you lot are at least aware of the problem...

[Inquisitor]

I get emails everytime a bug is reported.

It's not entirely for you, its for us, we have no way to keep track of issues and record resolutions. If you have an alternative system with the functionality of BZ, please, I am all ears.

The bugzilla link is in every release post, and on the "Links" page, one click off the site.

I'll ask stealth to move it to the main nav bar.

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]I must agree with Inquisitor here.
These guys are working for free. They're often implementing things that you guys ask for and they do it on their own time.
To be beligerent simply because it takes more time than you're willing to wait or they change a feature you like is not only childish and stupid, it's counterproductive, it slows their work down and gives them less incentive to continue working on your requests.

If you want to play freespace where beams pierce shields then go download a version from before this feature was changed. If you really want to see all your features in an exe then learn to program. It's the best way to get all of the features you want and it'll work a good deal better than making demands for something that you're willing to put zero effort into.
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[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by Inquisitor
It's not entirely for you, its for us, we have no way to keep track of issues and record resolutions. If you have an alternative system with the functionality of BZ, please, I am all ears.

Look, whilst the vague sarcasm serves to convey your point, all I meant was that Bugzilla deosn't encourage the likes of me to use it. For all I know, the bugs I report using it end up getting shredded and given to the hamster as bedding. If I report something here, I see an aknowledgement and discussion of a solution. I'm thinking purely in terms of encouraging people to use the system, and I'm only trying to help here so lets keep it civil, eh?

[Inquisitor]

So vieled/vague it's non-existent. I meant no sarcasm.

Bugzilla is as much so we can keep track of issues, and when used properly, make sure not only that only one person is working on a particular issue, but that issue's resolution is recorded and begins to create an online, searchable, FAQ about all issues in the code. It helps us do the job you expect us to do, the alternatives are me typing them into the database myself, which is an un-scalable solution

Seriously, if you can show me an alternative to it, I am all ears. No sarcasm intended or implied. It's what we have, it was generous of Warpcore to supply it, and, it does everything i want it to do. I've wriiten these kinds of systems, and purchased them, I do not want to do either ever again

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]If you want to play freespace where beams pierce shields then go download a version from before this feature was changed. If you really want to see all your features in an exe then learn to program. It's the best way to get all of the features you want and it'll work a good deal better than making demands for something that you're willing to put zero effort into.
[/color]

I think you`ve failed to get my point. I mention the shields thing because it's an example of how insular the SCP can be. I mean I only started looking in here a couple of months ago or so and there are lots of people who are very active in the FS community who don`t come in here at all.
 At the moment I get the feeling that a lot of people don`t come into the SCP forum cause they figure it's mostly dry techincal stuff that they won`t understand (and to a degree it is)
 The end result is that when the next version is released we end up with complaints about what should and shouldn`t have been changed.
 The solution is to make those who can`t program feel as welcome in here as those who can`t mod are in the Modding forum. That way they will be around to pipe up reasons why doing something would be a bad idea while it's still in the consultation process.

As for Bugzilla how's this, you report a bug here (in short) AND on bugzilla (in full detail) so that you know it's been seen, that you`ve given all the important information and that someone is working on it.
 Like I said for those of us who aren`t C programmers bugzilla does look quite scary

[Martinus]

[color=66ff00]I'm not aiming at those who thought changing beam pierce was a bad idea, I'm just using it as an example of all of the rants that come under the category of 'you changed it and I don't like it'.

I do think that the community has a right to choose what goes into the source but they don't have the right to demand it right here and right now, which has been the tone of a lot of the threads. If you don't like something you can state your opinion in a polite manner. As for the sourcecode project; I still think it's just getting into the swing of things. There are communication issues that need to be resolved between the coders and the community but for the most part I think the community has warmly recieved most of the updates and addons.

Everyone has cool ideas but there is a limited amount of skill here that can realise those ideas, coders get tied up in other things and as a result we often don't see results for a period. I personally have been looking forward to the bugfixes for 3.5.1 for a while, I know the coders are working hard when they are able to make this happen. There's a lot of goodwill here at HLP, it makes me a little annoyed to see it jaded by a lack of manners and patience.
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[Anaz]

Perhaps all you SCP people should have a bugzilla link in your siggys

[Inquisitor]

-edit- An: That is an EXCELLENT idea -end edit-

Oh come on.

Just have some patience, and find a way to help if you can. If you can't, think about what you type before you hit "Submit"

On that note, this really isn't a discussion about bugzilla or whatever, this is about not treating us like the VBB occasionally treated V.

TRY and be patient and polite and constructive, that's all.

I don't want to lose any developers because they felt the community was treating them like nothing but code monkeys. I need everyone of these (very talented) people.

This is a pre-emptive post, not a reactive, but there are subtexts in the posts around here that are starting to get out of control.

Think beofre you post, there is a human being on the other end of the screen. That person is trying to make a better FS2 for you.

*note "YOU" is a generic "You" not aimed at any (I mean ANY) individual.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Maeglamor
[color=66ff00]Everyone has cool ideas but there is a limited amount of skill here that can realise those ideas, coders get tied up in other things and as a result we often don't see results for a period. I personally have been looking forward to the bugfixes for 3.5.1 for a while, I know the coders are working hard when they are able to make this happen. There's a lot of goodwill here at HLP, it makes me a little annoyed to see it jaded by a lack of manners and patience.
[/color]

I fully agree. Like I said I have a lot of respect for what these guys are doing (especially as they don`t get the recognition that a campaign designer gets) and I hope that none of them have ever thought that my requests have ever been demands.

As for some people demanding stuff from the people working on the SCP simply don`t do it. Fill the polite requests of those who realised that the SCP people have other things they could be doing.
 The simplist way to curb bad behaviour is to not reward it. If the people who demand stuff see their own requests sitting around unused while the poeple who asked nicely got what they wanted they would also start asking nicely.

That said some of what looks like impatience may simple be people making sure that their own idea didn`t get lost when they fall off the first page of the forum. That kind of thing can easily be solved in a better way.

What I propose is a single "Big Ideas" Topic stickied to the top of this board. When the topic for an idea you suggested goes dead (and only then!) you add a post to the link with a short description of the idea (after suggestions) and a link back to the original topic. In that way you don`t need to keep asking "What ever happened to my .... idea" SCP people can simply look at the topic when they're deciding what to implement next and topics like the "Plan for 3.6" thread would be mostly limited to picking what gets implemented next off of the list.
 If you can`t be bothered to add the topic to the list then you can`t complain if no one implements it.

[Inquisitor]

tada!

[J.F.K.]

Originally posted by karajorma
One of the main problems with the SCP is that most people don`t hang out on this forum since it's percieved as a hang out for coders rather than a discussion area like the Modding forum.

The result is that many people who post on other forums avoid this one, miss out the discussions about implementations and then only can complain once they've actually got hold of the release and notice that something important was changed (a good example of this was the beams piercing shields bit from earlier).

Very perceptive point. Maybe we should open up a subforum for requests. Stick a disclaimer in there warning people that the SCP is non-professional, non-profit, and made of blokes just like themselves, and so naturally it will take no small amount of time to deal with such requests... but get the public discussion going, there's a lot of great ideas out there.

[KARMA]

i perfectly agree guys,
you are working for free at this project and nobody has a magic wand to make the modifications required, even the impossible ones, in a couple days.
Probably we (modders) have a misperception of what your (coders) work is, btw i think you will never be able to fully stop being overwhelmed by requests and by people who pretend we to make their favorite requests immediatly(me too:p), and this because there will also be far more modders than coders.
So your only suggestion is:
take a note of all the requests giving priority to what can be done, is necessary/important, is easy and fast to do, is cool, and we like more,
just ignore precedence claims, bumps, repetitions, that we will continue anyway to do, just in case we forgot em (virtual shields for caps!! virtual shields for caps!!!):)  
draw a line and when someone surpass that line, well say: " stop it"
Different point is your help request, we are are right we must get more involved than we are, helping we in any way possible, giving instead of only pretending.

Probably it may be good if we open a sticky thread(s) with things that people without coding knowledge can do if want to help anyway the scp proj

btw splitting this board in two(or more) forums, one for requests, one for development, etc etc may be a good idea

[Inquisitor]

Splitting things will just cause them to get missed. We tried that, sorta, with the VWBB, and basically, it just doesn't work.

I don't personally have a problem with all manner of requests being here, I just want to caution people on their tone. I wish the VBB was still up, there were some good (read: BAD) examples.

Just don't take your coders for granted, and be polite

On to other things, like 3.6

[KARMA]

ot
i think i'm drunk, why the hell should the forum automatically change "you" with "we" while editing/posting the precedent post?

[Inquisitor]

April Fool's joke?

[KARMA]

Originally posted by Inquisitor
April Fool's joke?

oh god:rolleyes: