Author Topic: physics @ work!  (Read 13915 times)

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Offline petmar

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Ok... so i'm a newbie... i'm also a physics major. I've got several problems with game physics in FS2 v.1.2 that i was hoping might be worked out...

1. Node collapse: i understand it's a cut scene, but emperor has assured me that this is being revamped to be in-game. This should put out a spacetime shockwave that should destroy anything within at least 5-10 klicks.

2. Asteroid fields: These should all be active. Asteroids are loose mass, and so are attracted to the most massive things in the area. This might include things on your escort list, however, it may not, as well. Therefore, all objects should have swarms of asteroids on them, and the smaller ones are the ones to be concerned about. This is because of the simple fact that small objects brought up to high speeds by massive gravitational fields will induce massive damage. Think rail gun, folks.

3. Stars: I remember this one time i was playing X-Wing... back in the early days... and I flew into a star. Yes, i know it sounds ridiculous, but there was gravity, and it actually incinerated me! Why not make gravity active, and allow star modification?

This is petmar the newbie, signing off. *click*
"And it truly is the most godawful looking thing you will ever see in FreeSpace short of an entire TC of untextured superpowerful cubes named 'TeH DeStRoIeRR!!!!11!1!'" -- Stryke9

"There is an expanding frontier of ignorance." -- Richard Feynman

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." -- Matthew 7:7-8

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3

 

Offline Starks

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Don't leave! You inspired me and a lot of people. We could use a person like you to steer is in the right direction to for your ideas.
Formerly of the Dark Wings and Legion of Apocalypse

 

Offline LtNarol

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Quote
Originally posted by petmar
1. Node collapse: i understand it's a cut scene, but emperor has assured me that this is being revamped to be in-game. This should put out a spacetime shockwave that should destroy anything within at least 5-10 klicks.

While this is a good idea, it can be done without using the source code, simple in-Fred explosion change.

2. Asteroid fields: These should all be active. Asteroids are loose mass, and so are attracted to the most massive things in the area. This might include things on your escort list, however, it may not, as well. Therefore, all objects should have swarms of asteroids on them, and the smaller ones are the ones to be concerned about. This is because of the simple fact that small objects brought up to high speeds by massive gravitational fields will induce massive damage. Think rail gun, folks.

Yes, gravity does accelerate all things after all, but gravity is a funny thing to implement.  While a shortcut would simply be classifying asteriods as "big" and "small" (the ones that are "big" would take a random direction and the ones that are "small" would home in on the ones that are "big" and or nearby vessels), this would severely alter gameplay and balancing for some current missions that rely on asteriod fields being passive.

3. Stars: I remember this one time i was playing X-Wing... back in the early days... and I flew into a star. Yes, i know it sounds ridiculous, but there was gravity, and it actually incinerated me! Why not make gravity active, and allow star modification?

Stars in FS2 are just bitmaps rendered as background, you're not supposed to be able to get close enough to them anyway and you're supposed to be occupied with other matters ;)
Welcome to HLP by the way :D

 

Offline Knight Templar

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wait, you flew into a star playing X-Wing? I didn't think that was possible.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

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Offline Starks

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Is there boundary to each level? For instance, can you actually go to the third Knossos which is over 100 clicks out?
Formerly of the Dark Wings and Legion of Apocalypse

 

Offline Knight Templar

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yes, there's a 60km box around the Level IIRC. Leave it and Command tells you to come back. Don't do it, and you die.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

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Offline Starks

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How do you die?

(For the record... IIRC I went over half way to that node before I gave up. I guess command had no way of contacting me or Snipes. Covert Ops remember...)
« Last Edit: May 06, 2003, 10:48:01 pm by 1169 »
Formerly of the Dark Wings and Legion of Apocalypse

 

Offline Knight Templar

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you explode.

and uh, it shouldn't have taken you more than 5 minutes tops. Turn on Time compression and give all power to engines.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

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Offline Starks

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I'm not stupid yah know... Besides I was doing the multiplayer version of it.

(Does anyone know where I can find the Red "Shivan" Knossos?
Formerly of the Dark Wings and Legion of Apocalypse

 

Offline diamondgeezer

Quote
Originally posted by LLivingLarge
Does anyone know where I can find the Red "Shivan" Knossos?

http://archives.volitionwatch.com - try the Derelict pack if you can't find an individual mod :nod:

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by LLivingLarge
How do you die?78


to be accurate, I'll quote the game:
"Alpha1 died from a collision with Alpha1" ( no, no typo )
isn't that cool? :D
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by petmar
2. Asteroid fields: These should all be active. Asteroids are loose mass, and so are attracted to the most massive things in the area. This might include things on your escort list, however, it may not, as well. Therefore, all objects should have swarms of asteroids on them, and the smaller ones are the ones to be concerned about. This is because of the simple fact that small objects brought up to high speeds by massive gravitational fields will induce massive damage. Think rail gun, folks.


1) In real life you don't ever get asteroid fields that dense anyway so if you're being realistic you should get rid of the entire asteroid field and put 1 single asteroids in the entire mission.

2)As for gravity pulling the asteriods towards ships that's a little unlikely. The size the asteroids are they aren't going to be attracted towards ships by any significant degree. Let me put it this way do you see skyscrapers pulled towards each other by their gravitational pull do you? Yet they are bigger than many of the asteroids.

The idea is that the ship just happens to be in the path of the asteroids orbit. Yep I know that's nonsense considering that the asteroids are all travelling in different directions  but asteroid fields look good so I'm using them as is. :D

Quote
Originally posted by petmar
3. Stars: I remember this one time i was playing X-Wing... back in the early days... and I flew into a star. Yes, i know it sounds ridiculous, but there was gravity, and it actually incinerated me! Why not make gravity active, and allow star modification?


While you can write a mission where the heat of a star will eventually melt your ship I doubt that the distance you can cover in a FS2 mission would make a difference one way or another. You can only travel a few kilometres before you get blown up for desertion anyway and I really don't think that would be enough. If you're close enough to the instant incineration point that it's 10,000m away then at the point you're at you'd be incenerated after maybe 5 seconds exposure. You simply can't write a working mission that close to a star.

Just move further out and simply do a timed mission
 
 "..Alpha you've only got 5 minutes before the heat sinks on your craft fail and incenerate you.."


The same goes for gravity for planets. Some people want to run missions where if you get too close to planet X or a a black hole X you automatically die cause you're pulled in.
 What they are of course forgetting is that gravity doesn't magically start working at a certain distance.

If the gravity at point X is so large you can't escape then the gravity 10,000m away will probably be so large that you're barely moving away.

If you want either of these features and you get someone to add them in (they better be optional though) go ahead but don't kid yourself that they are more realistic cause I really don't think they are.

Anyway welcome to HLP and sorry for the Trial by Fire :)
« Last Edit: May 07, 2003, 03:22:42 am by 340 »
Karajorma's Freespace FAQ. It's almost like asking me yourself.

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Offline petmar

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thanks for the replies!
Thanks for keeping the channel open. Also, I've spotted some more inconsistencies which could either be classified as physics violations or game bugs:

1. Thrust: The fighters aren't pushed back by kinetic weapons or missile launches. Why is this?

2. Spin: If you shoot at one side of something with a kinetic weapon or missile, it will be pushed back, but not spin. In this case, why doesn't the target get spun and wind up facing a different direction except if the shots are dead center?

3. Momentum Conservation: Why doesn't the ship keep going after it's given thrust and the engines are shut down? An object in space should keep moving, and not come to a stop until a force is exerted upon it. That's classical mechanics.

4. Reverse: Why can't I back up?
"And it truly is the most godawful looking thing you will ever see in FreeSpace short of an entire TC of untextured superpowerful cubes named 'TeH DeStRoIeRR!!!!11!1!'" -- Stryke9

"There is an expanding frontier of ignorance." -- Richard Feynman

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." -- Matthew 7:7-8

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3

 

Offline Nico

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1,2,3,4: coz FS2 is an arcade game, not an accurate simulation :)
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline petmar

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Too bad... I mean, we have the technology... We can make it better, stronger, faster!

But seriously, with even a PII class processor you could probably simulate that stuff. If we have gamers with powerful machines, why not try for accuracy?
"And it truly is the most godawful looking thing you will ever see in FreeSpace short of an entire TC of untextured superpowerful cubes named 'TeH DeStRoIeRR!!!!11!1!'" -- Stryke9

"There is an expanding frontier of ignorance." -- Richard Feynman

"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you: For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened." -- Matthew 7:7-8

"To every thing there is a season, and a time to every purpose under the heaven: A time to be born, and a time to die; a time to plant, and a time to pluck up that which is planted; A time to kill, and a time to heal; a time to break down, and a time to build up; A time to weep, and a time to laugh; a time to mourn, and a time to dance; A time to cast away stones, and a time to gather stones together; a time to embrace, and a time to refrain from embracing; A time to get, and a time to lose; a time to keep, and a time to cast away; A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak; A time to love, and a time to hate; a time of war, and a time of peace." -- Ecclesiastes 3

 

Offline Nico

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well, I agree, I think all that would be very cool, I was just stating a fact :)
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Re: thanks for the replies!
Quote
Originally posted by petmar
Thanks for keeping the channel open. Also, I've spotted some more inconsistencies which could either be classified as physics violations or game bugs:

1. Thrust: The fighters aren't pushed back by kinetic weapons or missile launches. Why is this?

2. Spin: If you shoot at one side of something with a kinetic weapon or missile, it will be pushed back, but not spin. In this case, why doesn't the target get spun and wind up facing a different direction except if the shots are dead center?

3. Momentum Conservation: Why doesn't the ship keep going after it's given thrust and the engines are shut down? An object in space should keep moving, and not come to a stop until a force is exerted upon it. That's classical mechanics.

4. Reverse: Why can't I back up?


1: Ever try the morning star? :wtf:

2: You contradict yourself.

3: This has been a Space-Sim standard for years.
It gnerally wouldn't be the same game if it were 'real'

4: I do agree with this. Even freelancer lets you use your thrusters to some degree.
Copyright ©1976, 2003, KT Enterprises. All rights reserved

"I don't want to get laid right now. I want to get drunk."- Mars

Too Long, Didn't Read

 

Offline Starks

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That's like wishing all FS2 ships had dorsal and ventral stabilizers.
Formerly of the Dark Wings and Legion of Apocalypse

 

Offline WMCoolmon

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1: The fighter's moving pretty fast, and the projectiles have to be fairly small...thus, the third law isn't going to apply so much

2: It's a small thing, and it would be doubly aggravating for players hit by a Morning Star. It probably just wasn't programmed in due to low priority

3: Freespace-physics ;)

4: It raises a whole slew of questions (Are reverse-engine points needed? Do all ships have it? How fast can ships back up? Can you use your thrusters to brake?) but I'd like to see this...it probably wasn't deemed necessary enough to take the time to code it in for FS2.
-C

 

Offline Nico

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btw, considering some ships can strafe left/right and up/down, it would make sense they could fly back too...
but all that is a pain to use with a joystick ( hence my mouse control request, btw ).
SCREW CANON!