[Eishtmo]

I've always thought of the Lucifer and its fleet as kind of a first test.  For what, I'm not sure (though I could speculate further given what was planned for future FS games).  The Ancients failed the first test, being wiped out by the Lucifer (probably the same Lucifer in FS1), the Terrans and Vasudans passed.  Barely.

FS2 was the next test, a bigger, nastier test.  I'm not sure the GTVA passed, but I doubt they failed.  Being able to take out one Sathanas might have been the key to passing, then in preperation for the next test, the Shivan nuked Capella.  Or maybe Bosch was the key.  In fact, I think he might have been more important than the Sathanas.  FS3 is the final test, and revelation of what is really going on, for good or ill.

Either that or the Shivans are simply stupid killing machines, one or the other.

[IceFire]

Listen to Flaser and Aldo guys, they definately have the right idea.

I've tried to write a conclusion to FreeSpace 2 several times now.  Its been really hard.  I'll tell you why.  Because I try to think in terms of objectives, goals, motivations...none of which we have any identifiable evidence of with the Shivans.  Yes they respond on a tactical and strategic level but only to beat the opposition...we have no evidence of resources they want, or territory to control....in FreeSpace 1...Vasuda Prime and Earth were obvious targets but aside from total extermination, there was no real motivation for it.  Not that we are aware of anyways.

I like Flasers connection with ancient China.  Shivans aren't a really dynamically changing speices from what we can see.  Those Sathanas' have probably been around for thousands of years.  Probably most of their ships are.

As far as Capella was concerned, I don't think we were even important in that battle.

[Thor]

Maybe it was Shivan Independence Day?

[IceFire]

Originally posted by Thor
Maybe it was Shivan Independence Day?

LOL.

"Celebrate your country's independance by blowing up a small piece of it!"

[karajorma]

Theory 1 : Read the background to MindGames. Geezer came up with a very credible theory for what the shivans were up to that also fits in with the whole "Shivans as part of a bigger problem" idea.

Theory 2: Suppose that the Lucifer fleet had no contact with the second shivan fleet. When the second fleet encounter the terrans they know they can can beat them so they don't send huge amounts of resources in. When they meet and take Bosch they completly have to rethink the GTVA. Maybe Bosch lies to them about how powerful we are in an attempt to make them think we are worth joining with. Thinking we have a fleet of thousends of Colossuses they panic and blow up Capella

The shivans did appear to change what they were up to after taking Bosch. That could be wrong but it does appear that way.

[Bobboau]

I have always felt as though they were sort of the gate keepers of space, or perhaps more acurately the god(s) of subspace, I feel there is absolutly no chance at all for us to beat them in any way (other than running/hideing), I think FS1 they sent the equevilent of a bug guy, and in FS2 they swated at some flies as they fixed something (knossos posably damaged 'there' subspace). I think the entire subspace network the GTVA has been useing (as well as the anchents and all of the other countless aliens for millions of years) was created by the shivans and when any new race starts encroching on there property they simple kill it, much like if you saw a roach in your home you would swat it, if there were enough you might get a can of raid (the lucifer is basicly one big can of raid/whoopass). we have yet to see a real shivan military ship, what we have seen so far might be just some part of a giant peice of construction equipment, the shathanas might just be a ship with minimal defences designed to fix small/medium subspace anomolies by redirecting the gravity/subspace feild genorated by a star.
if we realy pissed them of I think we would detect large masses of the universe moving sudenly twards us, I don't think we have the capability to suficently piss them off however, no mater how many roaches you may have you are not likely to take a tank to them, maybe an asault rifle if you're in a bad mood but realisticly that isn't going to happen too often.
the shivans motivations are unknowable, they want nothing that we know of, the desire nothng that we know of. but we know they are doing something, we will just simply never know what it is that there ultimate goals and desires are, if we are lucky we might get to see part of it.
one of the things that I think is in the relm of "what the shivans do in there spare time" is simply spreading, moveing to new space makeing it's subspace feilds nice and orderly. cuting the trees draining the swamps and puting up nice little suburbs, native fona be damned. note I'm not saying that what they want or there ultimate goal is, I'm not equateing there actions with actualy makeing a home in our galixy, I am simply saying what ever they are doing (wich involves moveing into new space) it seems to us the same way that our coloniseing of the world would look like to some small animal.
the shivans move to a new galixy they arainge it's gravity/subspace feilds so that it can be conected with there equivelent to an interstate highway, then they colonise it (not literaly, they do whatever it is that they do), the FS world is currently in phase two, shivans are altering the feilds of our galixy and are getting ready for phase three, moveing in.
we will never know what they want beond moveing into our galixy becase once that happens we will not be here anymore to ponder it, much like a roach will not know any more of you after you kill it for existing.

FreeSpace 3:
everyone get's totaly screwed

[Bobboau]

and on the subject of Shivan bioarmor, I once though that, but after looking at the ships, and the textures it looks more like nano-engeneered crystal, basically there ships are made of industrial diamond.
maybe some sort of boimass/nanotech stuff in there just for the fun of it (actualy it would alow the ship to fix it'self when not in combat). the ships are probly constructed with something that is so advanced it could probly be clasified as ether a highly engeneered living material and/or some sort of nanite, after the ships are constructed some of the nanocells remain, but most ether move on to the next ship or are consumed by the others for materials.

but this is just pointless technobable.

[Stunaep]

Originally posted by aldo_14

So they sent a bigger force as the 'intruder' was more 'threatening' than before, and they had obviously failed before.  But something happened - Bosch communicated with them.  Imagine if the ants talked back?  You'd be curious.

So were the Shivans, so they took Bosch out of curiousity - even if it was just for tactical reasons (know thy enemy). And they decided that they could find some use for the GTVA, so instead of clearing out the hive as such, they closed the door and sealed the GTVA in by nova-ing Capella.

It's only a theory... and one of the questions has to be why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?

Probably Capella hadn´t got anything to do with Bosch. Because the first Sathanas was already there before bosch was captureed, and amassing a fleet of 80 Juggernauts has to take SOME time. Which makes you curious doesn't it.

Why was the first Sathanas sent, if they really are means to destroy stars.

I have an idea, but I'll be elaborating on that on a future LM release.

Anyhow, back to the point, I believe that the first invasion hadn't got anything to do with the other. This explains why the Knossos hadn't been discovered until 2367. The Shivans never used it before, but they were planning the destruction of Capella ahead. Now in 2367 they activated the portal, we discovered it, and [kosh] so it began [/kosh]

[WMCoolmon]

It's only a theory... and one of the questions has to be why Capella and not Gamma Draconis?

The Knossos was in Gamma Draconis, and removing the star would really mess up gravity in the system. The Knossos could also be destroyed, or the spinning pieces could be shifted out of alignment and hit each other. And if actually survived, it would slingshot off in one direction and get farther and farther away from the Capella node, making it necessary to perform more and more power on intrasystem jumps...if that's possible with the star destroyed (I've always figured the gravitational field of stars allows for the intrasystem jumps somehow).

That brings up an odd idea for Capella...maybe the Shivans were destroying Capella to remove the GTVA's ability for interspace jumps, rather than destroying the nodes (which they might see as holy, inviolate, or irreplaceable)?

Edit: More on topic.
The Lucy, IMHO, was the command ship of a long-term scout fleet. Basically, the Shivans seed the area with small scouting groups and when they detect vessels with a certain amount of technological level, they locate their command center and destroy it. Since it's a "first-contact" group, the primary concern would be protecting the mothership from primitive weapons, so it could continue on its mission for, theoretically, forever. (rather than be worn down by attrition)
The Shivan tactics in FS1 make sense if you go with a centralized-mind mentality, with a central "brain-bug" controlling multiple drones. In FS1 it says the Shivans were only interested in controlling jump nodes; they were, strategically, performing surgical strikes against the "brain-planets" of the Terrans and Vasudans. They probably discovered in the computers of a destroyed ship that the source of their orders was either Vasuda Prime or Terra, and made that their prime target. They then bombarded the planets in an attempt to kill whatever commanded the fleets, perhaps not realizing it could be moved.
The Lucifer is perfect for that kind of operation; shields protect it from primitive vessels' weapons as it heads towards a central planet, then it proceeds to orbitally bombard the planet's surface. Of course, the Terrans surprised them by discovering a way to track ships and subspace.
So, to sum it up, I think the Lucy was just a scouting group's command ship, tasked with destroying species before they could threaten the Shivans.

[Tiara]

Sun goes boom! -> Messes up subspace -> and a huge ass node is created in the middle of GTVA territory.

Meh... j/k

[WMCoolmon]

Or maybe in Sol, who knows... could be that the Shivans are just really stubborn and singleminded.

Which of course fits with the brainbug theory.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon

The Knossos was in Gamma Draconis, and removing the star would really mess up gravity in the system. The Knossos could also be destroyed, or the spinning pieces could be shifted out of alignment and hit each other. And if actually survived, it would slingshot off in one direction and get farther and farther away from the Capella node, making it necessary to perform more and more power on intrasystem jumps...if that's possible with the star destroyed (I've always figured the gravitational field of stars allows for the intrasystem jumps somehow).

A great theory except for the fact that the knossos had already been blown up by that point!

Personally I tend to go with the theory that whatever the Shivans did to Capella wasn't something they could do to Gamma Draconis.

Capella Aa has a mass 2.7 times that of the Sun. Sigma Draconis on the other hand is nearly five times heavier than Sol. Perhaps the Shivans couldn't spare another 80 Saths needed to make it go boom instead!

[WMCoolmon]

Originally posted by karajorma
A great theory except for the fact that the knossos had already been blown up by that point!

Errrrr...there was another Knossos, yes, that's it.

At least it's a new theory.

[Flaser]

I've been proposing my idea about subspace that brings some sense to events both in FS1 and 2.
According to the lastest physics the most elementary particles exist in 10 dimensions, 6 of those are folded up, so they have very little affect on the macro scale of atoms.
Subspace is when those dimensions are aligned  into a space forcebly.
Gravity bends these dimensions and therefore makes the process easier.
With enough energy subspace can be created anywhere.
In Capella they didn't make the sun go boom - they drained it!
Witout the heat  from the thermonuclear fusion, the star collapsed since nothing countered the gravitational pull.
So the nova was only a secondary effect, what we saw is the creation of an extreme distance subspace node.
A ship traveling in subspace only creates a bubble of space-time reality. In that bubble the ship can move with conventional engines - and thereby push the bubble along.
For a limited ammount the path has to be aligned a little bit to control the bubble, but for intra-system jumps it requires very little energy thanks to the stars gravitational field.
For a long distance jump it takes more - that's why they have to use nodes.
Nodes are the places where the gravity is the strongest between the stars - the problem is that it's the most unstable as well in those regions.
So certain Lagrange points are set where the various torch, and tension forces cancel each outher out creating a reliable place for an inter-system jump.

The Knossos somehow provided an adittional pull an therefore helped the creation of nodes.

Inside subspace the problem with explosions is that they deform the space-time bubble arround the ship - which can create abberant alignments inside the node or a tunnel and in turn can cut off the part instead connecting it.

The shields are actually a derivation of this "bubble" - they are a dual layer of "bubbles" encasing a nanoscale portion of 10 dimensional subspace - this is also the reason why shields can't be used in subspace.
It also explains why the GTA and the PVN could adept to it so fast.

[Tiara]

Ok, so they drained the energy... And then what? Lose the energy by being blown up by the nova? Seems a wee bit pointless to me.

[Flaser]

Originally posted by Tiara
Ok, so they drained the energy... And then what? Lose the energy by being blown up by the nova? Seems a wee bit pointless to me.

They diverted the energy to aligning the subspace for an exteme range jump!
That thing needs a load of energy - probably way more than what the Shats could do with their reactors.

[Tiara]

So, they came to destroy a star... for what reason?

If it is how you are saying, it is not for the energy, as that would be used for the jump.

[Zeronet]

'Shivans are the Great Destroyers, but also the Great protectors'

[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Tiara


So, they came to destroy a star... for what reason?

If it is how you are saying, it is not for the energy, as that would be used for the jump.

The ending scenes of FS2 give some insight on possible reasons why they destroyed Cappella. The star itself is a focal point of local gravity...

[Mr. Vega]

The way the tech room describes subspace gives the impression that a ship should "phase" into subspace (similar to the Shadows) instead of creating a portal.