[Zeronet]

Originally posted by Mr Carrot
Id point out that the picture doesnt really tell you all that much except that American troops have little or no idea how to effectively control a crowd.

Theres no eye contact because of the shades and at least another 4 mental and physical barriers between the Iraqis and the Americans.

Whatever officer told them to fix bayonets should be court martialled for incompetence.

They aren't trying to control a crowd, they are just protecting the building.

[Bobboau]

Originally posted by Mr Carrot
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/newspaper/0,,176-721823,00.html

that I will beleve, brits are doing a much better job, we are takeing far too long, and over the last few weeks it seems like we have been doing a bunch of stupid things.

[CP5670]

CP: And what's wrong with them splitting up the artificial borders created by European colonists who didn't give a rat's arse about traditional ethnic borders or which groups hated each other? Hell, if the entirety of Africa was allowed to split up and reform itself more naturally on its own, I can guarantee you'd see about half as many wars as now.

Because half of these new countries would get anti-US regimes in power, so it would essentially be a return to the original situation; from the US point of view it makes no sense to allow such a breakup. Also, you seem to be thinking that this split (and such others) will come along as a peaceful mutual agreement, which is quite far from the truth; it would probably turn into a long-lasting civil guerilla-type conflict with lots of fighting over various territories that each of several factions claim is theirs and the usual genocides that occur when the ethnic groups have merged territories over time.

[Stryke 9]

Not necessarily. Established orders like to retain their power, so under Saddam it would never have happened, but the Sunnis in the Baghdad area don't want the Kurds any more than the Kurds want the Sunnis.

[CP5670]

But they have migrated to each other's territories over the years anyway since it was within the same country at that time. There have been very few such ethnic or religious breakups of a nation throughout history (none that I can think of atm actually) that have not ended up with the massacres on both sides that I mentioned earlier.

[Stryke 9]

Technically speaking, that massacre already has been and is going on. But yeah, I more or less agree that it's not likely to happen in this case. If nothing else, Turkey would never let the Kurds have an independent state.

[diamondgeezer]

Something that occoured to me today - the Japanese don't seem to have suffered from an American occupation and their subsequent embrace of American culture. In the long run, they became of the most sucessful nations on Earth.

[Bobboau]

oh, you're just a tool of the imperialist capitalist arastocracy!!!

(also note Germany)

[diamondgeezer]

Well let's see... I'm white and I like hoarding money. So I guess I must be. Go me!

[Stryke 9]

Japan succeeded because they finally decided to beat us at our own game. No country that has not embraced the takeover of their culture and state has ever succeeded- and that's almost all of them, naturally.

[diamondgeezer]

Japan's culture hasn't been wiped out, though. Indeed, it always fascinates me to see American influences and the old Samurai traditions attempt to co-exist. Seems to me that Japan took enough of American culture onboard to become succesful on the global market whilst retaining most of their native values.

[Stryke 9]

Yep.

[diamondgeezer]

But you don't see that happening in, oh I dunno, pick a country at random, Iraq?

Different pre-occupation circumstances, of course, but if it can happen in one place...

[Stryke 9]

No, I don't. Iraq is not embracing US occupation, it lacks the military and industrial capacity of Japan (for a long time the only fringe nation to have beaten a European superpower in a war), and doesn't have a proper niche right now. All it has is its oil, and that's a rapidly depleting resource- nevermind one we're being very quick to grab for ourselves.

There are many nations that are much closer parallels than Japan to Iraq's current situation. A good deal of Africa, for example...

[Bobboau]

Iraq has a very well educated population, if the oil can sustain them for five-ten years they could become the tech center of the Arab world

[Stryke 9]

Which is like becoming the most cosmopolitan part of Mississippi. Won't help you anywhere else, won't get you very far there. Hell, look at Israel- it's got some of the best tech centers in the world (looking at the inventions that come from there recently), doesn't mean they sell all that well. Uzis and some computer programs, that's about it.

[Turnsky]

don't forget IMI desert eagles;)

[Bobboau]

well Israel seems to be doing fairly well (I buy bell peppers from Israel every other day, not realy important just thought I'd mention that:)),
I realy don't know any figures but pound for pound it seems to be doing better than most European contries, if Iraq could replicate the level of succes that Israel has, they could posably become more powerfull than Germany or some such equivlelnt nation that is generaly considered world class.
but I realy don't know any numbers so I'll just leave it at I think they could realisticly become a world class (1st world) nation

[Stryke 9]

It's doing pretty well because it's had trillions of dollars poured into it. Sure, Iraq would probably do fine, too, if it was cushioned by a few billion dollars a year in contributions, but the likelihood of that happening are about the same as the likelihood of the entire population being captured and dragged off by walrus-people from deep beneath the Earth's crust.

That's not very, by the way.

[Bobboau]

note to self; walrus plan has been compromised, revert to plan c