Author Topic: New Guy with Questions  (Read 10603 times)

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


I won't disagree that there COULD be others the GTVA don't know about. When a knossos portal is shut down it's virtually invisible anyway and space is huge.

What I disagreed with was your statement that there MUST be other portals.


But there must be... look.

they go through Gamma Draconis right (after activating a portal that was hidden inside subspace itself.

It had to be hidden that way. The GTVA may not be the most advanced bunch inthe universe but even their sensors couldn`t miss something that big, activated or not, if it was just hanging in normal space. No the gate was cloaked or possibly submerged into a lower level of SS to keep it concealed. Or something  anyway.

Anyway, they find not one gate but teo in the nebula at least.
(the one where the Psamtik was nuked and the one the SC guys found and used to find even more portals.

So if the mysterious nebula had at least 2 and was barren, "into the lions den" galaxy had 2.... why does gamma have one? And why if the ancients had such a large empire in GTVA space have they found only one portal?

I still think that there may be more like the Knossos, hidden in remote systems that the GTVA have explored. (the ancients used the same nodes so they probably explored the same areas.)

And remember that the GTVA says that a knossos can not only stabiise nodes too dangerous to travel, but it can open new ones. If the ancients had such a big empire occupying GTVA space, then as well as the knossos they proabably made other knossos`s too. The evidence in the nebula of other Knossos devices support a possibility at leats that there may be at least one more Knosssos in GTVa space... remote and hidden.

But again, who knows:D
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In order for your assumption to work, there needs to be the idea that the Ancients were rampant through current GTVA space. I don't recall the specifics of the FS1 ancient's involvement on Vasudan worlds, but isnt the existence of the Terrans and Vasudans species evidence that the ancients didn't explore all of GTVA territory? (specifically Sol, Vasuda Prime and all worlds not bearing ancient artifacts).

  If Terrans and Vasudans weren't encountered by the ancients, even in their most primitive forms, then it seems to me that the ancient empire did not include all of GTVA space. And if all of GTVA space was not included, why would there be ancient devices in other parts of it?

  

Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by hobnob1978
But there must be... look.

they go through Gamma Draconis right (after activating a portal that was hidden inside subspace itself.

It had to be hidden that way. The GTVA may not be the most advanced bunch inthe universe but even their sensors couldn`t miss something that big, activated or not, if it was just hanging in normal space. No the gate was cloaked or possibly submerged into a lower level of SS to keep it concealed. Or something  anyway.



You're making a huge number of assumptions there Hobnob (And people stating something as a certainty without data to prove it is one of my pet peeves).

1) You're overestimating the power of GTVA sensor technology / underestimating the size of space. The distance to the edge of the GD system from the star would probably have been on the order of several billion km (Sol - Pluto is around 6 Billion.) The Knossos portal on the other hand is only a few km across. Do the words needle and haystack have any meaning to you? :)

2) The knossos doesn't give out any light. It probably doesn't give out any other form of EM radiation when it's inactive. In fact the Knossos is probably indistinguishable from a standard unstable subspace node when it is turned off. According to the tech room those form all the time and so would probably be ignored.

3) You're assuming that the GTVA made a very detailed search of GD when they first discovered it. That is unlikely. GD has no planets and it has no useful resources. The original survey of the system probably amounted to nothing more than a ship popping in, spending a day confirming there was nothing worth looking at in the system and then leaving.

Quote
Originally posted by hobnob1978
Anyway, they find not one gate but teo in the nebula at least.
(the one where the Psamtik was nuked and the one the SC guys found and used to find even more portals.


Nope. There was only one Knossos in the nebula. They found it in the earlier mission but only went through it in Lion's Den.


Quote
Originally posted by hobnob1978
So if the mysterious nebula had at least 2 and was barren, "into the lions den" galaxy had 2.... why does gamma have one? And why if the ancients had such a large empire in GTVA space have they found only one portal?


You're assuming that the Ancients built Knossos portals in all their star systems. That is again a huge assumption. The Ancients were no more powerful than the GTVA (just specialised in Subspace). Building a knossos portal is a massive undertaking. They probably only built the ones that they needed.

Once again Hobnob I'm not saying that there aren't Knossos portals in GTVA space waiting to be found. In fact I have one in my own campaign. What I take exception to is your shoddy chain of logic in insisting that there MUST be some.
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Offline TopAce

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About this Knossos theme ... I highly find it possible that the ancients used Knossos portals to keep a jump node intact, like the one at Gamma Draconis. That node would have been collapsed if the Ancients' hadn't built that Knossos there.(<- Sombody English, is this conditional tense correct?)
Otherwise, I find it possible that the Ancients used one of their portals to escape, collapse it, and survive.
I also find is possible, that the Ancients evaded complete annihilation, but their systems have been sealed of from any GTVA systems, a node stays intact for hundred or thousand of years, and there is a huger than big, and bigger than huge 8000 year gap between the ancient fall and the Great war.
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Offline TopAce

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2) The knossos doesn't give out any light. It probably doesn't give out any other form of EM radiation when it's inactive. In fact the Knossos is probably indistinguishable from a standard unstable subspace node when it is turned off. According to the tech room those form all the time and so would probably be ignored


This is a reason why the GTC Erikson failed to detect the portal when it visited the system in the year Gamma Draconis was discovered.
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Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by TopAce
This is a reason why the GTC Erikson failed to detect the portal when it visited the system in the year Gamma Draconis was discovered.


Was that the Erikson? I know that the Erikson visited the System 15 years before FS2 (the system was in fact discovered shortly after the Great War)
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Offline TopAce

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Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

Was that the Erikson? I know that the Erikson visited the System 15 years before FS2 (the system was in fact discovered shortly after the Great War)


I don't know if you are thinking about it: The GTC Erikson visited the system, had been at Gamma for a cruise, saw nothing, and the captain reported: 'It's an empty box of space, we don't see anything makes me remember life here, even half of my crew is sleeping ... returning home.' :D
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Offline karajorma

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You're not understanding me TopAce. I'm fairly sure that the Command Briefing that mentions the Erikson is talking about its patrol of the system 15 years before FS2 NOT the initial survey of the system. Play mission 4 of FS2 and you'll see what I mean.
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Offline TopAce

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' ... we don't know why the Erikson has failed to detect the portal 15 years ago when it visited the system ....' something like that I remember, so the Erikson was the one who failed to detect the portal.
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Offline magatsu1

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The node would have collapsed if the Ancients hadn't built the Knossos

nearly TopAce, but your english is much better than my Hungarian.

had Capella been colonised at the time of the Great War ?
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Offline TopAce

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Originally posted by magatsu1

nearly TopAce, but your english is much better than my Hungarian.

had Capella been colonised at the time of the Great War ?


Can you speak hungarian?
I think Capella was colonized, it was an important system for the GTVA during the second Great War, and only a system which was colonized a long ago can be so important. A colony cannot become so major over 32 years.
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Offline magatsu1

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can you speak Hungarian ?

No. Sorry, I was trying to be ironic..
is Capella an impotant system ?
(other than it being the home of 3rd fleet.):)
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
' ... we don't know why the Erikson has failed to detect the portal 15 years ago when it visited the system ....' something like that I remember, so the Erikson was the one who failed to detect the portal.


Sort of makes my point for me doesn't it? The Erikson visited GD 15 years ago not 32 when the system was discovered :)

Quote
Originally posted by TopAce
A colony cannot become so major over 32 years.


Except for Laramis which went from undiscovered to regional power within less than 32 years :D But yeah I think Capella was settled during FS1.
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Offline TopAce

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Quote
Originally posted by magatsu1

No. Sorry, I was trying to be ironic..
....


magatsu1: Sorry, but I can better speak hungarian than English. It is not ironical!

Karajorma: Let's stop our discussion here. :)

Others: Was Capella an important system? :D
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Offline diamondgeezer

Ironical? Genius! I'm stealing that one and passing it off as my own :nod:

 
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

1) You're overestimating the power of GTVA sensor technology / underestimating the size of space. The distance to the edge of the GD system from the star would probably have been on the order of several billion km (Sol - Pluto is around 6 Billion.) The Knossos portal on the other hand is only a few km across. Do the words needle and haystack have any meaning to you? :)  


No as they recive the technology to find an almost infinitely tiny pinhole in normal space that a particular Shivan vessel used to open a subspace tunnel to Sol. If the GTA could find that, and the sensors the Ekrikson used to scan the system were based on that tech suggests a hypothesis that the knossos was heavily stealthed to all wavebands to prevent detection. this is why Bosh needed the tech he aqquried from the ancient digs... only it could scan and locate inactive Knossos devices.
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

2) The knossos doesn't give out any light. It probably doesn't give out any other form of EM radiation when it's inactive. In fact the Knossos is probably indistinguishable from a standard unstable subspace node when it is turned off. According to the tech room those form all the time and so would probably be ignored.  


Exactly, which suggests that the GTVA would be unaware of any other knossos devices in their space...  Without the device Bosh used to find the Knossos in FS2 they may never be found.

Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

Nope. There was only one Knossos in the nebula. They found it in the earlier mission but only went through it in Lion's Den.  


It depends on whether the mission where the Psamtik is destroyed is the mission Snipes relates to in the briefing for
"Into the Lions den". He states that the Knossos you are exploring was "another, found by Intel even deeper in the nebula."

That seems to suggest a second one to me. Especially as you where on a "capture and contain" mission for the Vasudan battle fleet, not an intel mission, when you find the 2nd portal.


Quote
Originally posted by karajorma

You're assuming that the Ancients built Knossos portals in all their star systems. That is again a huge assumption. The Ancients were no more powerful than the GTVA (just specialised in Subspace). Building a knossos portal is a massive undertaking. They probably only built the ones that they needed.


Nope, not in all systems. I`m suggesting that the Knossos in Gamma draconis, a device which allowed a huge jump into a section of space so far away  that the GTVA didn`t know where it was, was not the only one.

There may be others at specific points that allow "Mega SS jumps" to distant places. I suggest that a possible second Knossos  could be present at the other "end" of GTVA space to gamma draconis. It would have been a good place to start looking.
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Quote
It depends on whether the mission where the Psamtik is destroyed is the mission Snipes relates to in the briefing for "Into the Lions den". He states that the Knossos you are exploring was "another, found by Intel even deeper in the
nebula."

That seems to suggest a second one to me. Especially as you where on a "capture and contain" mission for the Vasudan battle fleet, not an intel mission, when you find the 2nd portal.


Don't use qoutation marks unless you're making a direct qoute. What you're doing is paraphasing, and it's incorrect. Here's the exact text:

"SOC needs a unit to fly suicide to check out a second Knossos device the Vasudans found deep in the nebula."

From the above we can decipher three things:
  -its the second Knossos
  -the Vasudans found it
  -its deep in the nebula.

In the mission where the second Knossos is found the player is with the GVD Psamtik in the officer exchange program. The mission takes place deep in the nebula. Clearly, this portal is the one that Snipes is referring to. There's no reason that Snipes would know or care what the player was doing two days before, there he wouldnt' say "that you found deep in the nebula.". Also note the inflight message titled "No idea":

"What? Do I look Shivan to you? Uh-oh. Take a look at this. Knossos device number three. 150 clicks out in right field. Where the hell are we?"

   If there were two Knossos in the nebula, Snipes would label it number four. He doesn't. He calls it number 3.

Number 1 is/was in Gamma Draconis
Number 2 is in the nebula
Number 3 is in the binary system featured in loop2-2.fs2

Quote
No as they recive the technology to find an almost infinitely tiny pinhole in normal space that a particular Shivan vessel used to open a subspace tunnel to Sol. If the GTA could find that, and the sensors the Ekrikson used to scan
the system were based on that tech suggests a hypothesis that the knossos was heavily stealthed to all wavebands to prevent detection. this is why Bosh needed the tech he aqquried from the ancient digs... only it could scan and locate inactive Knossos devices.

Exactly, which suggests that the GTVA would be unaware of any other knossos devices in their space... Without the device Bosh used to find the Knossos in FS2 they may never be found.


  At what point does it say that the GTC Trinity used an alien (ancient) artifact/device to find the Knossos? I am and always have been under the impression that Bosch found records of the Knossos' existence and position, and data on how to activate it. Nothing more.

  Why would the Knossos be stealthed? The ancients who built the thing weren't challenged until they met up with the Shivans, they had never retreated. Why would they have any need to hide the device from sensors?

  As for the Lucifer. I don't remember anything about them finding a pinhole in space, just that the Lucifer was tracked through subspace.

Quote
Nope, not in all systems. I`m suggesting that the Knossos in Gamma draconis, a device which allowed a huge jump into a section of space so far away that the GTVA didn`t know where it was, was not the only one.


    The Knossos led to a gas filled nebula with no points of reference such as position of the stars. There's no way of knowing if the nebula was 10 light years away or 50,000. To assume it's "far away" is therefore unfounded. The binary system in loop2-2 did have stars visible but there was no indication from any briefing/debriefing about where the system was located. If GTVI did figure out where it was, I doubt the player would have been informed. Not at least until FS3 as in the missions following loop2-2 there's more important things to think about.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2003, 08:22:03 pm by 1332 »

 
Ok fine...

Not going to bother doing this one anymore. maybe there is maybe not..

On to better things!:)
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Well here's something you could possibly use:

  Look at the placements of the Knossii or Knossoses or whatever.

  Gamma Draconis -> Nebula
  Nebula -> Binary System
  Binary System -> who knows where

  If the Knossos device is used to either create or stabilise nodes; it goes to reason that when the ancients built the Knosses they were moving in the same direction as the GTVA did. Into Gamma Draconis, into the Nebula, into the Binary system and into who knows where.

  Assuming that travel through an unstable node is possible I find it unlikely that the Ancients would move the materials to build a Knossos, through an unstable node, just to build the device on the other end when they could more easily build it on their own end.

  So if we know the direction the ancients travelled in, we can assume that they travelled FROM GTVA space (or somewhere around there). And consequently, we can also assume they travelled in more than one direction and that there could be more Knossii in GTVA space. But it does not prove that there MUST be more.

  A lot of it depends upon where the Ancients originated. If their homeworld was near Vasuda then we can assume there are _probably_ more Knossii around, either in GTVA or beyond it. However if the area around Vasuda was merely one ancient world, then its probably more likely for a GTVA ship to go through a node and discover a Knossos on the other side. However most Knossii would likely be deactivated for the same reason that the one in Gamma Draconis was so the GTVA may never find any more Knossii at all, because the nodes they were supporting are no longer active.

 

Offline TopAce

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The number of Knossos devices will be depended on the ideas of campaign story makers, there is no canon information about it and there won't be any.

It is needless to state that there are more Knossos devices than three, nobody can be sure about it. :thepimp:

You should have bornt eight thousand years ago. :nervous:
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