Author Topic: revamping the Interface?  (Read 4104 times)

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Offline Nico

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revamping the Interface?
I've been thinking a lot about that recently, and the comment I wrote in the "interface and background" thread decided me to share the results of my brainstorming with you.
I don't like the current interface:
- it's too resource intensive, I'm pretty sure all the prblems many people have with it comes from there, and I guess the guilty part of the interface are all those ani files that clutter it.
- it's not mod friendly: all those anis, all those screens, they're just not easy to replace. Anis are a pain to do, and there's just countless of them
- it's not fast: too many screens just to reach a couple features.

First, I'd change the whole interface system:
rather than many screens, why not having a kind of webpage system? I may make pics to explain better if you don't think my idea sux, but for now, I'll just explain:
ok, you launch FS2, and arrive on the main screen. you have the usual background pic. On the right, you have a series of buttons:
on the top: choose pilot. clicking on it won't make a new screen appear, the right part of your screen will just show new informations, the pilots list, etc. all the buttons on the left remains visible, you just have "choose pilot" highlighted.
under choose pilot, you have choose campaign/missions. same deal, you have the list of campaigns and solo mission appearing. If a campaign is selected, its name will appear under the "choose campaign/mission" button. This feature should also load all the appropriate vp files used for that campaign, everything stored in a campaign folder
etc etc.
all the major commands, like "options" should be in that left main bar, and always available, wherever you are in the submenus. Say you click on "options". As usual, you'll have your display panel that appears ( in the frame on the right, this time ). To switch to the control panel, you have tabs on the top of the view, like in so many windows programs.

Then I'd get rid of ALL the ani. That's all that work that won't have to be done if a campaign maker wants his own custom interface, that will be much faster to load, etc etc.
To make the thing more customisable, I suppose a kind of "skin" could be loaded when you select a campaign.
There's no need for anis for, say, difficulty selection. Just select the difficulty level in a rolldown bar. It's the same for every features.
All that would make the interface much user friendly, really light on resources, and, if done well, would be as good looking as the current version. And it would be, as I said, much easier to modify ( a few PCX, a few colour codes, and you're done ).

That same system would be also carried on during a campaign.
You'd have a main window, with tabs to choose the different screens: a briefing tab, and a "hangar" tab ( coz I believe ship and weapon selection should be done on the same screen ). If there's a CB ani prior to that mission, another tab is available to go back to it if you want for some reason to see it again.
In the hagar screen, ships and weapons would be selected via rolldown menus, to get rid of all those tiny, uigly and ( you gotta admit, it often happens that if you didn't drop the weapon right in the middle of that big square, it would not be applied to the ship ) inaccurate ani icons.
edit: additionally, from a "legal" point of view, that removes all the copyrighted files and makes file sizes much lighter.

Voila, that's the basic idea. so?
« Last Edit: September 14, 2003, 06:00:25 am by 83 »
SCREW CANON!

 
mmm

it has good and bad things.

i can't really decide here.
just another newbie without any modding, FREDding or real programming experience

you haven't learned masochism until you've tried to read a Microsoft help file.  -- Goober5000
I've got 2 drug-addict syblings and one alcoholic whore. And I'm a ****ing sociopath --an0n
You cannot defeat Windows through strength alone. Only patience, a lot of good luck, and a sledgehammer will do the job. --StratComm

 

Offline Flipside

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I like the idea of more MOD support. The whole idea of SCP is to give modders more freedom and flexibility, the fact it makes the original campaign look better is, strangely enough, a side effect ;)
I've not very up on interface creation, so I don't know how difficult it would be to implement, but you are right in saying that we need to find a way to lose the '[V]' files from the front-end.
I'm for the idea in general, if you get the time, could you knock together a quick image, just so's I can have more of an idea?

Flipside :D

 

Offline Lightspeed

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i like the weapon and ship anis. And i also like animated parts of the mainhall.
Some of the things you suggest would simply reduce the eye-candy FS2 already has :)
If you want to make it easier to mod, thats fine.
However, if that makes FS2 look worse, it's a big no.
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Flipside

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Well, there are two things to consider here..

1 : Whatever the SCP ends up as, it will rely on Mods, what the source coders are creating are the 'tools' to create a new better FS, but it's up to modders, artists, fredders etc to make the most of it. I find the 'click here', 'now click here' etc etc quite annoying, particuarly when testing missions etc.
The chances are we are all going to have multiple Mods on the system at the same time. Venom is right, my FS2 folder is increasing in size at an incredible rate at the moment. Basically a leaner interface would mean faster loading and access to the FS2 game, which cannot be a bad thing :)

2 : The SCP cannot allow the dloading of any models or textures from Freespace 2, this includes Front-End images. Legally speaking, it makes life a lot easier if we can do away with all [V] content from FS2.

Flipside :D

 

Offline Fineus

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Well, what about 2 interfaces?

How hard would it be to code an option into the FS2 source that picks one interface or the other - one could be the stripped down edition used for those who want speed / functionality over pretty stuff. The pretty stuff edition could remain.. well, as it is...

 

Offline Lightspeed

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Quote
Originally posted by Flipside

2 : The SCP cannot allow the dloading of any models or textures from Freespace 2, this includes Front-End images. Legally speaking, it makes life a lot easier if we can do away with all [V] content from FS2.


FS2 is abandonware :rolleyes:
Anything you can download from HOTU should be free to give out to anyone. You could argue that movies & sound files cannot be given out to the community, but front end images -- i dont really see a problem.
And if we keep the current icons, we wouldn't need to allow the download at all since everyone who has FS2 will also have those files ;)

I don't really see a reason why we should dump all the [V] stuff. And if someone creates a really good mod, a little extra effort to do weapon icons shouldn't be too bad. We could change the current system of FS2 so that it adjusts the colour of the weapon icon by itself, instead of needing ANIs for every weapon. Also the same thing could be applied to loading / detail bars. You could get rid of some of the ANIs without making it look worse :)
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Fineus

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Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed
And if we keep the current icons, we wouldn't need to allow the download at all since everyone who has FS2 will also have those files ;)

"Nail on the head"
If we keep the original stuff, it doesn't need to be offered up - everyone who has the game should have these files. We don't need to worry about sharing them again.

And if we do away with them, we don't need to provide them for the SCP.

Simple ;)

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed


FS2 is abandonware :rolleyes:
Anything you can download from HOTU should be free to give out to anyone. You could argue that movies & sound files cannot be given out to the community, but front end images -- i dont really see a problem.
And if we keep the current icons, we wouldn't need to allow the download at all since everyone who has FS2 will also have those files ;)

I don't really see a reason why we should dump all the [V] stuff. And if someone creates a really good mod, a little extra effort to do weapon icons shouldn't be too bad. We could change the current system of FS2 so that it adjusts the colour of the weapon icon by itself, instead of needing ANIs for every weapon. Also the same thing could be applied to loading / detail bars. You could get rid of some of the ANIs without making it look worse :)


FS2 is not abandonware. we've decided, some times ago, that it was, never really understood why, neither did I care much actually. According to the usual blabla on those kind of sites ala HOTU, it's not even old enough :doubt:
Anyway, I don't suggest to strip every graphic stuff to make a 100% text interface, I just call for speed and simplicity. I see no eye candy in a 25*25 pixels icon that has to be dragged and droped ( and that lags horribly when you drag it on half the systems using a SCP build, btw ). For the spining ships ani, let's say that if an ani is provided, it would play that ani. If not, it'd switch to a true 3D view like in the techroom.
What I think is needed, is to get rid of all the useless ani files everywhere ( every damn button in the interface is an ani file :doubt: ), and to have an interface that doesn't make me want to run away screaming. Just the fact that you have to create a new pilot for each SCP build, you have to go through XX screens to set it up, the keys, etc. I don't test anything anymore partly because I'm fed up with that, then coz ( heh ) the interface is horribly laggy on my comp and, finally, coz the game is laggy too ( but that's another pb which comes from my PC, not the SCP, since I had that pb already before, just not at the same level ).
But yeah, I thought the same thing than Thunder: on the SCP launcher, just add a box to check, that would enable the light interface. that way all those who like the old interface would be happy.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline IceFire

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Sounds like a good idea.  A more easily moddable interface would be great...it can still be visually interesting but I do agree with Venom that it could be much simplified...perhaps even more akin to being skinnable than at present (more like Winamp or Trillian than a giant piece of integrated artwork).

I am not however for removing the original interface altogether.  It should be there...classic mode if you will :)
- IceFire
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Offline KARMA

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I was thinking about something like a web system too, but with a different meaning.
I think scp should point in changing the way the interface is built (so the way it decide what image should go in wich screen and where) rather than designing a new interface.
I was imaging how I would make the interface if the interface was built with something like an html code:
1- a lot less images, since they would be shared between the different interface screens, instead of screen specific images, and you would be free to decide between static images or animations, etc
2- the "operations" (load a mission, launch a campaign, map the joy buttons, change graphic options, etc) will be something like special links, so the modders will have an incredible degree of freedom in changing the not only the graphic aspect of the interface, but the whole interface design: you would be free to change the position of whatever link wherever you want
3- you would be free to change the structure of the interface (the tree) in the way you prefer, and it would be very easy if you have to add new operations or campaign custom operations: it will be a system capable of dealing with whatwever new possibility will be introduced in future by scp
Now, I'm not saying to use the html code for the interface (I don't even know if it would be possible and what problem this would generate), but if only we could have at some level it's flexibility, well it would open incredible amount of possibilities

 

Offline LtNarol

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The current system works, its organized, and if you know what you're doing, its quite easy.  The only thing I'd want is an optional table to specify which screens go with which screen images.

Sidenote: If SCP gets rid of ANIs or changes the loadout system, I won't even bother making ITN SCP compatible, I'm not taking that much time to redo all the loadout art for a separate version.  Keep to the original system, its actually more friendly to mods if those mods have already been started.

  
as always, keep the original, but make a command line or something for the improvement.

i like KARMA's idea, making the whole thing work like something resembling a webpage. that would mean that a thing like Fleetwars could, in theory, with the right coder, have the entire interface for moving ships and stuff in it's own exe.

let's just say, the more customisability (is this a word?), the better, but always keep the original as an option.
just another newbie without any modding, FREDding or real programming experience

you haven't learned masochism until you've tried to read a Microsoft help file.  -- Goober5000
I've got 2 drug-addict syblings and one alcoholic whore. And I'm a ****ing sociopath --an0n
You cannot defeat Windows through strength alone. Only patience, a lot of good luck, and a sledgehammer will do the job. --StratComm

 

Offline Lightspeed

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Quote
Originally posted by Venom


FS2 is not abandonware. we've decided, some times ago, that it was, never really understood why, neither did I care much actually. According to the usual blabla on those kind of sites ala HOTU, it's not even old enough :doubt:


Yes, it's not old enough. But it's the right of any company to declare some projects abandonware; the same as they did with FS2. If it wasn't abandonware, we wouldnt have the source code :)

Quote
Originally posted by Venom
Anyway, I don't suggest to strip every graphic stuff to make a 100% text interface, I just call for speed and simplicity. I see no eye candy in a 25*25 pixels icon that has to be dragged and droped ( and that lags horribly when you drag it on half the systems using a SCP build, btw ). :


hmm its no 25x25 pixel item at all. Its a detailed (and IMHO pretty good) PDA-like icon of the gun / ship you want to use. My suggestion here is that we either
a) use a single image for the weapon, and the game will change the hue / saturation to create the different looks (selected, impossible, normal)
or b) go back to FS1's style and only have an outline where the center part can be filled with any colour.
That way, we would get rid of an ANI without losing the items :)

Quote
Originally posted by Venom

For the spining ships ani, let's say that if an ani is provided, it would play that ani. If not, it'd switch to a true 3D view like in the techroom.


Never said anything against this. I'd love to have an actual ship rendered there, it wouldn't make things look worse at all, but it would be VERY VERY good for modders (since your ship will be automatically usable in the loadout screen) - I would even suggest replacing the current top-view thingy in the loadout screen with a rotating ship model, the gun points you're currently loading out showing up :D


Quote
Originally posted by Venom

What I think is needed, is to get rid of all the useless ani files everywhere ( every damn button in the interface is an ani file :doubt: ), and to have an interface that doesn't make me want to run away screaming. :


You can get rid of most interface ANIs without making FS2 look worse. Just need to get the actual game to change the image to selected / deselected look.

Quote
Originally posted by Venom

Just the fact that you have to create a new pilot for each SCP build, you have to go through XX screens to set it up, the keys, etc. I don't test anything anymore partly because I'm fed up with that, then coz ( heh ) the interface is horribly laggy on my comp and, finally, coz the game is laggy too ( but that's another pb which comes from my PC, not the SCP, since I had that pb already before, just not at the same level ).:


uhm, there's a button called 'clone pilot' which will transfer your settings to a new pilot :p
But yeah, rearranging the interface could be a good thing to do, as long as it doesnt lose any eye-candy ;)

Quote
Originally posted by Venom

But yeah, I thought the same thing than Thunder: on the SCP launcher, just add a box to check, that would enable the light interface. that way all those who like the old interface would be happy.


i would change some things on the old interface as well, it could really take some upgrade (see the rotating ship thingy ;) ) - but a 'light interface' option could be a really useful addition :D
Modern man is the missing link between ape and human being.

 

Offline Nico

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Quote
Originally posted by Lightspeed


Yes, it's not old enough. But it's the right of any company to declare some projects abandonware; the same as they did with FS2. If it wasn't abandonware, we wouldnt have the source code :)

 


No, that's a completly different thing.
1) I challenge you to find where Interplay said they'd let FS2 fall into the freeware pond.
2) source code doesn't make a game free. it's clearly written in the sourcecode txt by the way. You can redistribute the code, but not the resources that come with FS2. My take on the HOTU version of FS2 is that it's ilegal, but either Interplay doesn't know about it, either they just don't care ( I suppose it's 1, but if they heard about it, it'd switch to 2 :p ).

for the weapon icons, my bad, it's a detailled 56*24 icon ( I just checked ). w00t. Sorry if I'm being sarcastic, but it doesn't look good ( I looked at the trebuchet icon... ), and it's useless. That's not what I call eye candy :p

anyway, I don't know why I started this, it will ( it is already ) ignored by the SCP guys as usual :doubt:.
SCREW CANON!

 

Offline Fry_Day

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'cause the interface is totally hard-coded and probably one of the last things to be changed. There are far too many assumptions about where things are for changing the interface code not to be a mess.

 

Offline Flaser

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I'm definitly supporting the load-out remake.

A coplete remake on the other hand has its problems:

I'd definitly keep the mainhall, after all this could be a major eye-candy for many big projects. We shouldn't only think of individuals, but projects as well.

The too many screens problem: Some simplification would have its merits, say it would be a see through image that gets casted on the mainhall each time you enter an area in the mainhall; so you can move faster.

Briefing and loadout should be given some major eye-candy background/semi-hall to give something in turn for loading them separatly OR should be integrated into the main hall as said above.

What we should avoid at all cost is going ST style - it's too slow and easy too get bored with.

We should keep the mainhall to have some candy, but the mainhall (and maybe the a hangar?) alone.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Solatar

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I think a good idea for the rotating ship model in the loadout screen could use code from Modelview and the techroom. Use the techroom code to display it, and use the modelview code to be able to switch between wireframe and texture; as well as having it hi-light the selected gunpoints (like in modelview).

We could render it with a grid or something below it too maybe.

 

Offline Rictor

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Here's something that I made about a month ago, which I think fits the bill kind of well.

Credits go to Setehk for the pic and font style, I just changed what the text said. I didn't get his permission on this mostly becuase he's away, but also becuase I just made it for my amusement and not for release. Anyways, heres goes.



edit: I put this into FS2, and as a Main Hall, it looks really nice. Really nice. Really nice.

 

Offline FreeTerran

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Its cool but we need 24bit interface ;7
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