Author Topic: The Shivan Manifesto, Version 2.0  (Read 22484 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pyro-manic

  • Flambé
  • 210
Interesting....

I don't agree with everything you've said, but you've reasoned well and backed up your theories. Nice one! :)

:welcome:
Any fool can pull a trigger...

 
I don't agree with it at all, but it is well done and supported with evidence. Thumbs up.:yes:

 

Offline phreak

  • Gun Phreak
  • 211
  • -1
this was one of the best theories i've seen on the origins and motives of shivans.  i think stryke 9's was another great one, although comical.  i need to dig it up somewhere
Offically approved by Ebola Virus Man :wtf:
phreakscp - gtalk

 

Offline Woolie Wool

  • 211
  • Fire main batteries
Here's my take on the Shivans' motives:

The Shivans are a genetically engineered super-race created by a race of extremely advanced beings whose name I cannot divulge for T&T storyline reasons. These aliens are unbelievably advanced, but they are paranoid of other races catching up to them in technological advancement. They jealously guard their superiority. They created the Shivans to annihalate any race that these beings consider advanced enough to be a threat. The master aliens, as I will refer to them in this piece (they have a different name in T&T)  are subspace dwellers and thus have not evolved to perceive things the way we do. They designed the Shivans to detect threatening races through subspace activity, because they know so little about realspace and stellar cartography.

The master aliens "programmed" the Shivans to believe that other races are evil savages that must be destroyed. The Shivans believed WE were the destroyers, bent on destroying them and their masters. But when Admiral Bosch began communication, the Shivans' whole way of thinking was turned upside down. (T&T plot elements begin here)  They realized that what their masters had told them was all lies. The Shivans decided to bring Bosch to their home, which I decided to model after Antares' "Cocytus". To get there, they needed to create a truly enormous subspace node,  and they sacrificed Capella to do so. The Shivan forces you fought in Capella at the end of FS2 were simply a force sent to hold the Terrans and Vasudans off while the juggernauts make their jump.

The Shivans, after interrogating Bosch, decided to make peace with him and what was left of his NTF. They discovered a world of new information and new technologies. ETAK was modified to convert Shivan communications to radio and sound waves and back, streamlining communication incredibly. Capital ships began to be fitted with special ETAK radio devices, and Shivan crewmen and pilots wore translators. The newborn Terran-Shivan Alliance began to marshal its forces to launch a massive assault into GTVA space, with the aim of unifying the galaxy to prepare for the eventual onslaught of the master aliens, because they knew that peace with Bosch meant treason against their masters...
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 11:58:32 am by 1099 »
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 
i like the theory a lot antares, and it's a great start for a new member.
just another newbie without any modding, FREDding or real programming experience

you haven't learned masochism until you've tried to read a Microsoft help file.  -- Goober5000
I've got 2 drug-addict syblings and one alcoholic whore. And I'm a ****ing sociopath --an0n
You cannot defeat Windows through strength alone. Only patience, a lot of good luck, and a sledgehammer will do the job. --StratComm

 

Offline StratComm

  • The POFressor
  • 212
  • Cameron Crazy
    • http://www.geocities.com/cek_83/index.html
There are a lot of campaigns out there seeking to explain the origins of the Shivans, but I won't try to give their reasons for shivan existance/aggression.  The point has been raised that we know next-to-nothing about the Shivans.  I believe that this is what makes them such a formidable adversary; they are extremely powerful, possess seemingly infinite resources, and have an overwhelming drive to obliterate any space-faring life.  The reasons for their actions are and must remain a mystery, if the pure alien nature of the Shivans is to be preserved, which I believe it must be (it's what makes FS so epic, I think), then :V: never intended to actually reveal their origins or true purpose.  And I think our speculation only serves to counter the atmosphere of humanity fighting to prevent anhilation at the hands of a mysterious, god-like power, whether you see the Shivans as working towards the good of the galaxy or for pure, xenocidal evil.  (I count Vasudans as part of humanity here, because while they are alien, they are still very similar even culturally to humans from what we know.  They live in similar habitats, and most conjecture on the post-Capella story either falls into the cliche of Vasudan-Terran schisms tearing the alliance apart or places the two races into a strong and lasting alliance).

That said, I personally believe that they come from somewhere, and that they have many, many "homeworlds" scattered across the galaxy.  The GTVA holds at anyone's best guess about 20 systems; I would place the Shivans anywhere upwards of 20,000.  That is why they don't take planets in FS1, because they don't need the resources (and why put your resourcing and construction operations anywhere NEAR the front line if you already have them in an area that is already well-secured?  Did the US move all of its weapons factories to France at the start of World War II?) and because the primary objective of the Shivan incursions is to wipe out the fleets of whatever race they are trying to kill.  If they find the homeworld, then they go ahead and melt it down, but they wouldn't bother wasting time on colony worlds if there is still a fleet out there to fight them.  Once all the ships of the GTA were gone, do you think the Shivans wouldn't have gone on to glass every inhabited planet in Terran and Vasudan space?  They controlled the nodes because in a multi-system war that is what is really important.  If you prevent the enemy from bringing in reinforcements, you can obliterate his remaining forces without too much trouble (if you are truely superior, as the Shivans were in FS1).  The GTVA was using this strategy in the NTF war, so it stands to reason that controlling jump nodes is more important in a freespace war than this theory accounts for.

As for Capella, it is possible that the Shivans were taking a containment action, much like the GTVA was in sealing off the nodes.  For all the Shivans saw, the GTVA kept pouring in reinforcements just as the Shivans did; there were no more Collossi, true, but from the endgame cutscene we can see that a lot of terran and vasudan capital ships were in system engaging the shivans.  So it is very possible that the shivans said "enough is enough" when the first Sathanas was destroyed.  Or they could have intended to go on and nova every star in GTVA space, were the nodes not collapsed.  We have no idea.  I would say it is safe to assume that they did not know what happened to the Lucifer fleet.

I would also like to point out that the Shivans could easily have an interstellar empire of their own.  They could be sending out scouting forces (like the Lucifer) to anhilate any potential future threat.  The Sathanas fleet would be a frontline unit, for use against any race strong enough to survive the Lucifer.  Not their only frontline unit, and not the most powerful ships in their arsenal, but an actual battlegroup that does more than protect the core territory.  The ancients were growing strong when the shivans came, but we assume that they did not survive the onslaught of the Lucifer.  Or perhaps, like the GTVA, they stopped a Lucifer-like attack only to have their star nova'd by the Shivans.  Or perhaps they fell to something greater, something not yet brought to bear against the GTVA.

I would also like to point out that the assumption that the Shivans are capable of traversing unstable jump nodes is not necessarily true.  We know that destroying the Knossos did not actually collapse the node (don't we?  At least we don't know that it did actually collapse, only that the GTVA scientists thought that it would cause the node to revert to its unstable state) so there's no proof there.  Hell, for all we know, the Knossos could have been more of a lock than a stabalizer, as they all seem to fan out towards Shivan space.  As for Ross 128 (FS1) there is no evidence to rule out the existance of an uncharted jump node, or of an unstable node that the Shivans determined would stabalize for long enough to slip a fleet through.  There is a command brief in FS1 saying something to the effect of "they are still just as reliant on subspace nodes as we are" so the assumption that they can freely use nodes unusable by the GTVA is questionable at best.

Anyway, them's my 2 cents.  Take them or leave them.
who needs a signature? ;)
It's not much of an excuse for a website, but my stuff can be found here

"Holding the last thread on a page comes with an inherent danger, especially when you are edit-happy with your posts.  For you can easily continue editing in points without ever noticing that someone else could have refuted them." ~Me, on my posting behavior

Last edited by StratComm on 08-23-2027 at 08:34 PM

 

Offline Antares

  • 28
  • Author of The Shivan Manifesto
Thanks to everyone for taking the time to read through the Manifesto; I know it's probably a more extensive read than some of you are used to.  Since I have some free time, I'll make replies to some of your questions, and later, make some edits to the Manifesto itself to incorporate them.

Many of you expressed disbelief at the notion of the Shivans "fleeing" from Capella, so I'll try to elaborate on that particular question before moving on to individual queries.

Firstly, if we accept that the Shivans operate with a hive mentality (something we will accept as true for the purposes of the essay), then we need not necessarily conclude that their reaction at Capella was one of "fear", per se.  It would be in error to confuse the notion of "fear" with that of "self-preservation".

If there is any dominant principle in the animal kingdom, it is to stay alive.  This is commonly observed in the "fight or flight" principle, which even humans possess; we either confront an enemy, or run away so that we might live to fight another day.  This principle is more complex when applied to a hive society, as generally, there are no individuals; all drones or workers strive for the good of the colony, and may very well be willing to sacrifice their own lives for the sake of that goal.  However, this should not lead us to conclude that mass suicide is acceptable by default; if all the drones in a hive society are killed, who will be left to support the hive itself?  In Robert Heinlein's classic Starship Troopers, a group of the grotesque "Bugs" (also called Arachnids, the book's main "bad guys") have surrounded a space marine who is shielding himself behind a bulbous "brain bug" which serves as the controlling influence for the hive's workers.  The "warrior" Bugs screech in protest and frustration, unable to attack the hiding marine; if they do, they risk killing the brain bug itself, destroying the hive hierarchy and silencing the source of their own commands.  In effect, the Bugs would be comitting suicide.

For that reason, you Shivan fans out there should not think of the Shivans as being "afraid" of the GTVA.  Rather, you should think of them as regrouping and marshalling their forces instead of risking complete decimation at the hands of a Colossus fleet.  They are merely exercising good judgment in the face of the unknown.  To paraphrase Heinlein himself, any race that possesses enough skill to construct spacecraft is not stupid.  

Although the Shivans themselves are not the sort to often make retreat, they have done so on more than one occasion, when the situation calls for it.  In "First Strike", the Shivan cruiser Taranis--low on supplies--attempts to retreat through the Beta Cygni jump node.  Shivan cruiser group "Hellfire" tries to rejoin the primary Shivan fleet in Delta Serpentis, rather than lingering to do battle with the attacking GTA fighters, in a show of simple strategy.  Even the Demon-class destroyer Beleth gives priority to making the jump to Capella instead of powering down its engines to combat the Vasudan corvette Thebes and the player's remaining bomber wings.  This is either because the Beleth does not believe it can survive a bomber attack, or is more focused upon providing reinforcement to the Sathanas.  In either case, the destroyer's first concern cannot be the engagement of the nearby GTVA forces, or it would not bother making such a run for the jump node.  This is just one more indicator of the Shivan strategic mindset: self-preservation and accomplishing orders take priority over enaging every target of opportunity.  This is further evidenced with the first Sathanas, which breezes through to Capella without remaining to mop up the surviving bombers, and by the juggernaut fleet itself, which proceeds on course straight to the Capella star without engaging nearby GTVA warships.

But then, why do the Shivans throw swarms of fighters and bombers at the Alliance with such apparent abandon?  The simple answer is that this in itself is not a bad strategy; overwhelming numbers have determined the outcome of many a battle in the course of history.  However, we should also take note of the benefits vs. costs standpoint.  In the briefing preceding "Their Finest Hour", Admiral Petrarch informs us that the GTVA has suffered over one hundred thousand casualties, a figure which probably includes all military craft and civilian transports.  Given the Shivans' military superiority, we will arbitrarily assign them one-tenth the casualties at a figure of 10,000 in terms of fighters and bombers for the purposes of this discussion.  This figure in itself is admittedly optimistic, for not every pilot in the GTVA can be a Triple Ace and mop up some 400 Shivans over the course of his or her career.  If we include all capital ship classes ranging from crusiers and up, we can probably double this number to 20,000, perhaps 25,000; if we assume the Sathanas has at least the same crew capacity as the Colossus (the actual figure is probably smaller, for we can assume the Shivans are more efficient in terms of space than either Terrans or Vasudans, and are able to operate their ships with smaller crews), then the number balloons to around 50,000 or 60,000.

If we accept a static figure of 30,000 for a Sathanas crew (acknowledging our uncertainty), and multiply that number by 85 (as we are told there are "more than eighty" juggernauts, but apparently less than ninety), and add this product to our previous figure of 60,000, we are left with a rough estimate of what the Shivans would view as their potential losses in a full-blown shootout with the GTVA: a staggering 2.6 million Shivans, more than twenty times the casualties of the GTVA, even when taking into account the destruction of the Colossus.  This is a considerably larger investment than the dozens of "throwaway" Shivans in any given fighter or bomber squadron.  Faced with such tremendous losses to their active forces, it is not difficult to imagine why the Shivans would choose to make a strategic retreat.

As for the notion of the theoretical "Colossus fleet" itself, remember that GTVA space is pretty big; not large, perhaps in a galactic sense, but still consisting of some 23 star systems, excluding Sol and Capella.  If the GTVA did possess a Colossus armada, it would make sense for them to evenly distribute these vessels throughout their borders, rather than lumping them all together in one particular system.  As anyone will tell you, capital ships are relatively slow-moving; even the vaunted Sathanas only has a top speed of 25m/s, with the Colossus matching this velocity.  If a Colossus were stationed on the fringes of GTVA territory, in Alphard or even Altair, it would take quite a while to make the complex system of subspace jumps needed to reach Vega.  You can rest assured that the Shivans weren't able to round up their own armada in a matter of hours, either.  Being intelligent creatures, they would have known a small window of time existed for them to act before the GTVA would have been fully prepared for a confrontation.  With this in mind, discretion was "the better part of valor", so to speak, permitting the Shivans to return to Cocytus and lick their wounds.

The argument that the Shivans would already have known the extent of Terran/Vasudan military capability from experience in the First Great War is invalid simply due to the fact that these species make progress.  So far as anyone knows, the Shivan species has remained essentially the same--if not stagnant--for the last eight thousand years, using the same kind of weaponry (as per the discoveries of the Vasudan scientists in Altair), and presumably, the same kinds of spacecraft.  While there are notable additions to the Shivan fleet between the First and Second Great Wars, such as the Mara, the Astaroth, the Moloch, and the Ravana, just to name a few, there are also numerous "older" craft, such as the Basilisk, the Manticore, the Nephilim, the Seraphim, and several capital ships.  The folks over in the Inferno camp would even have us believe that the clunky old jalopy, the Scorpion, is still in use. :D  In contrast, the GTVA is nearing completion of its switchover from the old "Great War relics", opting to incorporate faster, more capable, more destructive war machines.  There's probably little doubt among anyone (except maybe Galemp) that an Erinyes could grease an Apollo any day of the week.

Humanity's potential for adaptation should not be underestimated.  We went from having no existing space program to landing on the moon in less than twenty years.  In "The Great Hunt" (FS2), you'll even hear one of your wingmen muse about what a "miracle" it was the Alliance won the Great War, due to the lack of present-day technological advantages: shields (a slight continuity error, as Terrans and Vasudans only lacked energy shielding for a relatively short portion of the Great War, before using them throughout the remainder of the conflict), flak guns, and beam cannons.

It appears as though I've used up all my free time for the moment--that discussion was longer than I thought it would be :nervous: --but when I get the chance, I'll try to make in-depth responses to your individual comments!
We have returned to continue our purification of this galaxy. It is again your turn to be crushed beneath the great force that is the Antaran army. All your petty squabbling with the other beings in this galaxy is meaningless. The Antaran fleet will destroy you all, one by one. You may not surrender. You cannot win. Your only option is death.

 

Offline Woolie Wool

  • 211
  • Fire main batteries
Quote
Originally posted by Antares
If we accept a static figure of 30,000 for a Sathanas crew (acknowledging our uncertainty), and multiply that number by 85 (as we are told there are "more than eighty" juggernauts, but apparently less than ninety), and add this product to our previous figure of 60,000, we are left with a rough estimate of what the Shivans would view as their potential losses in a full-blown shootout with the GTVA: a staggering 2.6 million Shivans, more than twenty times the casualties of the GTVA, even when taking into account the destruction of the Colossus.  This is a considerably larger investment than the dozens of "throwaway" Shivans in any given fighter or bomber squadron.  Faced with such tremendous losses to their active forces, it is not difficult to imagine why the Shivans would choose to make a strategic retreat.

After all, the Shivans had no idea what the GTVA had in store. For all they knew, the GTVA could have 100 Colossi. They decided that it would not be worth the casualties to continue their assault and that the GTVA campaign was a quagmire.

Quote
The argument that the Shivans would already have known the extent of Terran/Vasudan military capability from experience in the First Great War is invalid simply due to the fact that these species make progress.  So far as anyone knows, the Shivan species has remained essentially the same--if not stagnant--for the last eight thousand years, using the same kind of weaponry (as per the discoveries of the Vasudan scientists in Altair), and presumably, the same kinds of spacecraft.  While there are notable additions to the Shivan fleet between the First and Second Great Wars, such as the Mara, the Astaroth, the Moloch, and the Ravana, just to name a few, there are also numerous "older" craft, such as the Basilisk, the Manticore, the Nephilim, the Seraphim, and several capital ships.  The folks over in the Inferno camp would even have us believe that the clunky old jalopy, the Scorpion, is still in use. :D

The Scorpion in INF is improved, but the even worse Shaitan is not improved and the Shivans are STILL USING THEM in Inferno!

Quote
In contrast, the GTVA is nearing completion of its switchover from the old "Great War relics", opting to incorporate faster, more capable, more destructive war machines.  There's probably little doubt among anyone (except maybe Galemp) that an Erinyes could grease an Apollo any day of the week.

I think the Erinyes sucks, think you very much. I'd take the Apollo or Ares over it any day.

Quote
Humanity's potential for adaptation should not be underestimated.  We went from having no existing space program to landing on the moon in less than twenty years.  In "The Great Hunt" (FS2), you'll even hear one of your wingmen muse about what a "miracle" it was the Alliance won the Great War, due to the lack of present-day technological advantages: shields (a slight continuity error, as Terrans and Vasudans only lacked energy shielding for a relatively short portion of the Great War, before using them throughout the remainder of the conflict), flak guns, and beam cannons.

Indeed. The Shivans in T&T will have a hard time against the GTVA.
16:46   Quanto   ****, a mosquito somehow managed to bite the side of my palm
16:46   Quanto   it itches like hell
16:46   Woolie   !8ball does Quanto have malaria
16:46   BotenAnna   Woolie: The outlook is good.
16:47   Quanto   D:

"did they use anesthetic when they removed your sense of humor or did you have to weep and struggle like a tiny baby"
--General Battuta

 

Offline Falcon

  • 29
It can also be siad that the Shivan's possess long life-spans like and that the GTVA could be facing the personality of the same leader that destroyed the Ancients.
[and the same ones that witnessed the destruction of the Ancients]

Could the Shivans also have a dictatorship?
One was an extreem technologist
The next one a stategist
The one the GTVA is facing very agressive

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
It's a good idea, not totally in agreement with what I think, particuarly about the damages Subspace thing. Maybe Capella was the only 'suitable' star for such a massive Jump as would be initiated by it's destruction, X-Ray emission levels, Particle wavelength etc? Though a jump powered by the core of a star, and the evidence of the nebula beyond the Knossos portal suggests that the Shivans REALLY want to get somewhere very far away very quickly! Possibly it is co-incidence that the right stars happen to be G Main Orange/Yellows, and we just happen to get in their way?
As for originating in subspace, it's a nice idea, but I would have thought their shield technology would work if that was the case?

Flipside :D

As was said at the End of Freepspace 1, had it not been for the Shivans, the Ancients wouldn't have survived for long, they would have fallen to another race. This certainly implies that the Shivans have some sort of relationship with Subspace, but I'm not sure what it is :)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2003, 02:54:26 pm by 394 »

 

Offline Falcon

  • 29
Maybe the Shivans are the caretakers from a bigger race that vanished for some unknow reason.
[The same like what was talked about in Freelancer when they faced the Nomads. A race created by the Dom Kevash who vanished for some unknown reason]

 

Offline Sybiene

  • 21
The whole Cocytus: Center of Subspace thing is still rather fishy. If they homed in on the T-V War, I have no doubt that the NTF war would have raised some flags. Not to mention that I'm sure as the GTVA grew, so did the military and civilian traffic through the jumpnodes.

And the Lucifer's death pinching off the Sol Jumpnode didn't raise any eyebrows on Cocytus? :doubt:

And if massive subspace interference threw them to a random area around their destination, it's far more likely that the Shivan fleets would appear in deep space that in a star system, if the radius is dozens of lightyears.

Even if the subspace hub idea were true, then the middle of the GTVA is exactly where the Shivans should have shown up in FS2.

Also, in regards to being unable to contact Cocytus.. the fact that the Juggernaughts showed up so late in the game means they can either contact it, or they don't actually keep their forces there. They were losing the nebula, so they called in the cavalry. There isn't any real advantage to holding the Sathanas fleet back until the endgame, so one must assume they weren't around to begin with.

Flipside also makes a good point about the shields. If subspace were their native dimension, it'd be far more likely that their tech would work there, than in normal space.

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
Maybe the Shivans are like Wasps, gnawing away at the very house they are building their nest in?

Flipside :D

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • Administrator
  • 212
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
Symptom = side effect, usually an undesirable one. Thus the classification of the Shivans as a "symptom" of a much larger problem would seem to contradict their label of the Great Destroyers / Great Preservers. A side effect, not a crucial cog in the precise workings of the universe. A side effect.

The FS1 cutscenes ( :thepimp: ) make it very clear that it was the wanton destruction of weaker races that was the reason behind the Ancients' destruction at the hands of the Shivans.

It is stated in "Sin" (according to how I named the cutscenes) that the Ancients' 'crime was sin.' In "Fate", although the 'Cosmic Destroyers' noted the Ancients' use of subspace, the Ancients state: "When we conquered and colonized in galaxies where we had no place, the destruction and the anguish and the loss were the clarion call of our doom." And lastly, in "Liberation", it clearly states that the Shivans were preserving infant races from destruction by older races.

As much as I personally like the "subspace in danger" theory (despite it being reminicient of the Star Trek situation with FTL travel at high warp speeds), I do not see that the cutscenes leave much room for doubt.

But where does that leave the loose end of subspace drawing the Shivans? For the answer, look at the text of the first cutscene. Despite having an apparently powerful empire spanning multiple systems, the Ancients did not encounter any other races - until they discovered subspace. This discovery allowed them to slaughter many infant races, but was not in and of itself something that caused their destruction.

One can liken it to a "criminal in house with innocents" situation. The entry of the criminal into the house was what called the police to the scene (Fate: "When we traveled subspace, the Cosmic Destroyers took note."), but the gunshots and screams are the final straw that the SWAT team was waiting for (Fate: "...the destruction and the anguish....were the clarion call of our doom.").

So the Shivans police the galaxies (plural), on the lookout for subspace-faring races. Those that have subspace are the races that have the ability to kill other races. Shivans and the police forces - at times, both have to kill in order to preserve innocent life.

So. Returning to the hanging question from the first paragraph, we can now use substitution to perhaps bring added clarity:

Police are a symptom of a much larger problem.

So....the formation of a police force is one of multiple natural results to what problem?

Simple.

The problem is the ability and freedom of life itself to kill other life.

Quote
Originally posted by Kazan
...on the possibility that the shivans "blinked" and were worried that perhaps we could blow away their sathanas fleet I believe that may be plausable.

The shivans were quite likely used to being virtually unopposed.  The loss of the lucifer fleet would have set them aback, not to mention how quickly we stole their shield technology

Then 32 years later we show up with beam weapons, and heavy anti-matter warheads, stealth fighters the shivans can hardly detect - and we have a ship larger than their juggernauts and we destroy one of their juggernauts after it barely enters our space.

The "Comm Nodes" could have been major installations of somepoint, and that our destroying them triggered the anger of the shivans - but their worry that we may have had more of the Colossus-class worships may have send them spinning - from the collective shock of losses they have never before expirienced they may have decided to run-home whereever that was, in another galaxy perhaps.


Maybe they were not destroyers-of-all but destroyers-of-the-weak and when we were able to stand up to them the returned home - to another galaxy - a more "mature" galaxy, ie older species.


I must disagree completely here. According to K.I.S.S. in combination with what the back of the FS2 box stated about the Lucifer fleet being only a scouting party, then I find it likely that the Lucifer fleet was sent to scout out the GTA and PVN fleets and systems as much as possible. Gather information, and send it back.

Now, if your scouting party can do the main job in and of itself, wonderful. Thus we have the Lucifer's attack on Vasuda, with the subsequent press towards Sol. And so if this goal (let the scouts do it) dovetails nicely with the scouts' main goal (scouting enemy positions ans fleet strengths), then that's just great. But if they get destroyed in the process, "oh well - they got us the info we needed."

Leaving us with FS2 being, of course, the follow-up invasion. However:

[q]...how quickly we stole their shield technology

Then 32 years later we show up with beam weapons, and heavy anti-matter warheads, stealth fighters the shivans can hardly detect - and we have a ship larger than their juggernauts and we destroy one of their juggernauts after it barely enters our space.[/q]

This can still be valid. Even assuming the Shivans knew about the weakness of no shields in subspace, chances are they had never encountered a situation where the Lucifer (or equiv.) was destroyed half-in / half-out - the only situation where there would be debris to base research upon. If the Lucifer was destroyed in subspace, then it would have killed the subspace tunnel and no debris would be accessible. And if the Lucy got into normal space, then she would have shields and wouldn't be destroyed at all.

Quote
Originally posted by Devils_Hitman
The destruction {of the star} caused the nodes to gamma draconis and connecting systems to be sealed off.


No it didn't. The meson bomb-laden Orions sealed off the nodes. The supernova just made the system nice and comfy.

Quote
Originally posted by StratComm
They controlled the nodes because in a multi-system war that is what is really important.  If you prevent the enemy from bringing in reinforcements, you can obliterate his remaining forces without too much trouble (if you are truely superior, as the Shivans were in FS1).  The GTVA was using this strategy in the NTF war, so it stands to reason that controlling jump nodes is more important in a freespace war than this theory accounts for.


Very good point, although I do not think it is proof in and of itself that Shivans are uninterested in planets for purely strategic reasons.
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Here's my theory (Draws breath)


















Shivans get PMT.

Sorry

 

Offline Sandwich

  • Got Screen?
  • Administrator
  • 212
    • Minecraft
    • Skype
    • Steam
    • Twitter
    • Brainzipper
Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14
Shivans get PMT.


PMT?
SERIOUSLY...! | {The Sandvich Bar} - Rhino-FS2 Tutorial | CapShip Turret Upgrade | The Complete FS2 Ship List | System Background Package

"...The quintessential quality of our age is that of dreams coming true. Just think of it. For centuries we have dreamt of flying; recently we made that come true: we have always hankered for speed; now we have speeds greater than we can stand: we wanted to speak to far parts of the Earth; we can: we wanted to explore the sea bottom; we have: and so  on, and so on: and, too, we wanted the power to smash our enemies utterly; we have it. If we had truly wanted peace, we should have had that as well. But true peace has never been one of the genuine dreams - we have got little further than preaching against war in order to appease our consciences. The truly wishful dreams, the many-minded dreams are now irresistible - they become facts." - 'The Outward Urge' by John Wyndham

"The very essence of tolerance rests on the fact that we have to be intolerant of intolerance. Stretching right back to Kant, through the Frankfurt School and up to today, liberalism means that we can do anything we like as long as we don't hurt others. This means that if we are tolerant of others' intolerance - especially when that intolerance is a call for genocide - then all we are doing is allowing that intolerance to flourish, and allowing the violence that will spring from that intolerance to continue unabated." - Bren Carlill

 

Offline Flaser

  • 210
  • man/fish warsie
Lots of good ideas, and some hasty critic.

I keep retelling my old ideas (over 2 years) again and again, which center around one simple fact:
Common sense - what we think of an issue is lightyears away from how it actually happens.

Seemingly the way we percieve reality and how it is are the same - however there is a cruical difference:
For us it has a meaning while for just the universe itself (leave God and his kind out of this) it has none.

That meaning is the very own of the perciever so in sense there are a thouzand universes we can speak of.

For example there's a Flaser's universe full of hot chiks who avoid him like plague and nice science no one bothers with. That there's Gloriano and Hitomi's universe with one other in a focal point and suschi and a soft spoken language.

This are quite Earthly examples still you can see that your universe is quite different from what is actually out there.

The way I interpret this on Shivans is that their motives shouldn't be explained just by saying it would be logical.

My other idea is that we disregard the nature of freespace which is a grave mistake considering how important it is to the FS universe (it is in the name after all).

The nature of subspace could lead to diverse changes in the very nature of the universe we speak of.

The actual status of the GTVA is also a big unknown, we don't know too much about Terrans in that era after all.

For example it could be that during 2335 most of the systems the GTA or PVE had were only colonized to a brief enxtent and only a  couple of planets were inhabitated - for space economic issues planets are not too good to settle down.

My idea about Shivans is that they were born on planet, than they evolved some in space - so they addapted to their new environment.

About the Cocytus - I like the idea, however I doubt it would be somthing Shivan.

Actually there are a couple of facts we don't really grab:

The Shivans have existed for more than a milenia (10-000 years - more than our entire history) in space.
It is an immesurable time. I have to agree with the fact that Shivans are stagnating. No civilisation given this time would stay stabile if its structure had any dynamism.

This leads to a far-fetched conclusion that they are also decandent. They would rather do something out of habit and custom than adept to the new circumstances.

Their life is a dead end - the once proud explorers and conquerors live in decay their inner fire stolen by the passing of milenias.

However I had a crucial doubt: Would the Shivans be the First and Only Destroyers?

I doubt. However what if they weren't always?
They must have taken that position somewhere in the past after taking on the old destroyers.

Why would they continue the old ones saga?
Probably because they had no choice but to do so.

To sum up my own thoughts:
-Shivans are a decandent ancient civilisation in stagnation if not in decay
-They had to take the position of being destroyers - so there are forces that make them do it. That's why their attacks are only symptoms.

That driving force could be fear of extinction, or some twist of being an extremly advanced race - maybe if subspace itself.

I agree with the last. Subspace IMHO is a string inside normal space, so it ovelaps our universe. Gravity pulls space, so it helps the formation of strings.
Nodes are place where the forces created strings between far solarsystems.
A ship traveling through subspace emmits some radiation and it also creates subspace disturbances. - With enough these disturbances could cripple the stings, and it would take a couple of thousands of years to repappear on their own.

Shivans have low emmision engines, and they probably have to guard subspace just to survive.
If too much traffic takes places, regardless of how much each craft pollutes subspace disaster would still take place.
Giving aliens technology not to pollute that much won't eliminate pollution.

However this isn't a good explanation.

I'm willing to settle on something that I've scraped out of Kim Stanley Robinson's books (the Mars trilogy):
He introduces a historical view where each and every state of humanity is just a transition between two states.
So the ancient times where a transition between Prehistoric barbarian life and sturctured life of the Middle age.
The Middle age was a transition between the communal Ancient Time and Individual Capitalism.
Capitalism is a transition between private capital and social prosperity - I don't really remember the term he used for this last post modern era, however it can be summed up in the term "human harmony" - so humanity is forced to live in a manner where the individual and the society are in balance.

The FS society IMHO is just on the brink of this era. The formation of huge companies, and the strong centralised government are just parts of this phenomenon, the presense of capitol is still a relique from the Modern age.

However Shivan could live in something beyond that:
"Enviromental Harmony" - they handle their environment the galaxy as if it was a living thing with rights of its own.

However the new space-faring races disregard its rights and spread like plague - something that infuriates the Shivans.

The apparent use of subspace - a sign of any interstellar race - can show sings of such nature.
"I was going to become a speed dealer. If one stupid fairytale turns out to be total nonsense, what does the young man do? If you answered, “Wake up and face reality,” you don’t remember what it was like being a young man. You just go to the next entry in the catalogue of lies you can use to destroy your life." - John Dolan

 

Offline Flipside

  • əp!sd!l£
  • 212
I wouldn't really think that forcing Stars into a Supernova state is environmentally friendly either though :(

I won't bother giving you all the details of my own thoughts but I'll say I'm thinking Shivans are acting far more on instinct than anything else, possibly subspace activity is like a beacon to them, maybe they left for our space in the days of early subspace jumps and took years to get here, whereas the Knossos was a forgotten gate to the Ancients empire? Who knows?

Flipside :D

 

Offline Falcon

  • 29
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Maybe the Shivans are like Wasps, gnawing away at the very house they are building their nest in?

 



More like killer bees one small move and you can set them all off.
Since it is said that the Shivans are sensitive to subspace disturbanses.

 
If they where indeed constructed, they would have a purpose. Without a purpose there is no reason to exist.  

They are not concerned with fear, or any other emotion.
The Shivans existence revolves around their task, to preserve life, and to take it away when nessasary. Some races just arent ready for subspace travel, the reason why the shivans have been around for so long is they oviously still have work to do

Most people refer to the shivans as "insects" of some sort. I prefer to think that they are more machine than anything. Meaning they have a very long lifespan.
And there is the possiblity that the shivans where created as a set number of units. As in all of them where there in the begining. This means that they have no ability or interest in making more of them, they dont need resorces or planets.

But beliving this would make shivan freighters, miners and cargo usless.

There may be a large "super structure" in space, producing shivans.


I dont belive shivans live on planets, or have ever lived on planets.  To develop into such complex and suited designs would take more than a million years. so you can come to the conclusion that they where infact designed.

Which then leads into a bigger perdiciment.

on a side note , we are not trying to understand a universe, its quite impossible. To truey understand and know the shivans you would need to know everything to do with that particular universe, whats possible, how ther physics work, ect.

...they belong to the galaxy, and are created to protect it, they are the masters of subspace.....and dont take kindly to intruders.

Have fun :lol:
« Last Edit: October 14, 2003, 03:09:36 am by 1440 »
--------------------------

Sig