[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Stealth


that guy's an idiot.  he thinks every event in the Matrix is tied to some event in the Bible. what a retard, his thoughts are obviously very shallow.

Stealth, have you ever even read any classic literary analyses? Because that's what this is. He's analyzed the two movies, applied them to a literary and historical framework, and finally, he made some generalizations and conjectures about the themes, the messages, then, running with those, made some predictions. Apart from the predictions, that's classic literary analysis in a box. Calling him an idiot because you don;t understand what he's saying or how he got to it is juvenile.

Anyway, I'm personally in agreement with Anon on the Neo killing the sentinels crap - there's a lot of **** in his body - if he could learn to manipulate the stuff that the machines put in there specifically for creating energy then he'd be able to do **** like that.

As for the Zio being a part of the Matrix - Refer to the Oracle in M1 - She said Neo'd be able to feel that he was the one - wouldn;t he get the same feeling in Zion? Admittedly, that's tenuous, but more telling I think is that the Machines were able to make the rules of Physics strictly enforceable in Zion, they'd do the same in the standard Matrix (I mean, if Neo can't do **** in Zion, and it's still the Matrix, why have a One at all?)

Also, as for Zion popping back up, Keep in mind, time in the Matrixc is warped. Morpheus believed it was 2199, Neo Believed it was 1999 - what's to stop in being 3199 (ie - time resets every iteration of the Matrix, and Zion is rebuilt in the same amount o f time over and over again, with nobody realizing it;s been done before.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Black Wolf

Stealth, have you ever even read any classic literary analyses? Because that's what this is. He's analyzed the two movies, applied them to a literary and historical framework, and finally, he made some generalizations and conjectures about the themes, the messages, then, running with those, made some predictions. Apart from the predictions, that's classic literary analysis in a box. Calling him an idiot because you don;t understand what he's saying or how he got to it is juvenile.
I do understand what he's saying... he's making a comparison to the Bible... but he's trying to predict what's going to happen according to the Bible, and that really is plain stupid, because you can pretty much compare the Matrix to any book/movie... they've all got the "struggle between good and bad"

Anyway, I'm personally in agreement with Anon on the Neo killing the sentinels crap - there's a lot of **** in his body - if he could learn to manipulate the stuff that the machines put in there specifically for creating energy then he'd be able to do **** like that.
so you believe that "Neo is not flesh and blood"... OK

As for the Zio being a part of the Matrix - Refer to the Oracle in M1 - She said Neo'd be able to feel that he was the one - wouldn;t he get the same feeling in Zion?
and he DID get the same feeling in Zion... remember at the end of Reloaded he says "Something's different.  I can feel them"... and he then destroys the sentinels.[/color]

Admittedly, that's tenuous, but more telling I think is that the Machines were able to make the rules of Physics strictly enforceable in Zion, they'd do the same in the standard Matrix (I mean, if Neo can't do **** in Zion, and it's still the Matrix, why have a One at all?)
but he now CAN do "****" in Zion, note how he destroyed the sentinels

Also, as for Zion popping back up, Keep in mind, time in the Matrixc is warped. Morpheus believed it was 2199, Neo Believed it was 1999 - what's to stop in being 3199 (ie - time resets every iteration of the Matrix, and Zion is rebuilt in the same amount o f time over and over again, with nobody realizing it;s been done before.
If Zion was in the real world, time would not reset itself, time would reset itself in the Matrix, but not in the real world (because that's impossible)...  Now if Zion is destroyed, it's destroyed, how can they build it back up again if all humans have been captured... you'd think the machines would have learned after 5 times?

My theory is fool-proof... Zion is still part of the matrix... you cannot deny it.

Prove to me that it's not, by disputing these facts:

1)  Neo destroyed the sentinels, saying "something's different", and that he can "feel them"... how could an ordinary human (everyone outside of the matrix is a regular human) destroy sentinels the way he did (with his mind)?  it's impossible, and means Zion is still part of the matrix.

2)  The Architect said that Zion had been destroyed 5 times already... how can it be destroyed 5 times in the real world and still be alive... wouldn't the machines have learned by now?

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Stealth
I do understand what he's saying... he's making a comparison to the Bible... but he's trying to predict what's going to happen according to the Bible, and that really is plain stupid, because you can pretty much compare the Matrix to any book/movie... they've all got the "struggle between good and bad"

So that's a no then

Originally posted by Stealth


My theory is fool-proof... Zion is still part of the matrix... you cannot deny it.

Prove to me that it's not, by disputing these facts:

1)  Neo destroyed the sentinels, saying "something's different", and that he can "feel them"... how could an ordinary human (everyone outside of the matrix is a regular human) destroy sentinels the way he did (with his mind)?  it's impossible, and means Zion is still part of the matrix.

First off, Neo is not Human. He's a walking, talking, thinking battery. He can produce energy and electrical fields, and, if he learned to manipulate these fields outside of the matrix, he could, theoreically, produce the required EMP to take out the sentinels, especially at such close range.

Also, if Zion was always a part of the matrix, then why wouldn;t something always "feel Different"?

Originally posted by Stealth

2)  The Architect said that Zion had been destroyed 5 times already... how can it be destroyed 5 times in the real world and still be alive... wouldn't the machines have learned by now?

Zion is neccesary to weed out all the people who aren't accepting the Matrix, just like the One is neccesary. Th's why they constantly allow it to be rebuilt. What you don't understand is that the date doesn't matter. In fact, nothing that we can't immediately percieve really matters - all that matters is our beliefs and perceptions of the truth. Take, for example, The crossover between Zion 3 and 4. The Oracl;e pulls the first few people, chosen by Neo Three, out of the Matrix, and tells them it's, say, 2050, long enough after their percieved reality (of 1999) for the AI to hve taken control of the human race. They choose a site and build Zion, and begin to free minds. OK. Fast forward 150 years. They believe it's 2199. The one is freed, Zion is destroyed, and the cyce begins again. It doesn't matter that, in truth, the Oracle freed the first minds, not in 2050, but in 2450 (assuming  200 year cycle for each Zion/One rotation) because everyone believed that it was 2050, and therefore, it was. Time doesn't need to reset, because people perceptions reset.

If you didn;t understand that, go read 1984. It makes the perception vs. fact statement far better than I could.

[redsniper]

Everyone's arguing about the Matrix while they're still in the Matrix. Whooooa...

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by Black Wolf
Anyway, I'm personally in agreement with Anon on the Neo killing the sentinels crap - there's a lot of **** in his body - if he could learn to manipulate the stuff that the machines put in there specifically for creating energy then he'd be able to do **** like that.

How in the hell could someone simply will a piece of equipment designed for one function to perform an entirely different function? That's like thinking you can turn your microwave into a laser cannon just by pushing the right buttons.

Zion has to be in the Matrix... it's the only possible explanation for the machines to want it to exist. Given that the machines only care about humans as far as their power-generation potential, they shouldn't care what happens to them after they're unplugged. Yet they do. Therefore, the humans that reject the Matrix are still plugged in. Q.E.D.

Of course, this raises the painful question-- Why should we assume the reality presented in the Zion-Matrix bears any relationship whatsoever to true reality? It would actually be in the best interest of whoever's running the show for the details of the conflict to be entirely fabricated. No point giving valid information to people in case any actually escape the system.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Stealth
1)  Neo destroyed the sentinels, saying "something's different", and that he can "feel them"... how could an ordinary human (everyone outside of the matrix is a regular human) destroy sentinels the way he did (with his mind)?  it's impossible, and means Zion is still part of the matrix.

Dude, the theory I came up with doesn't mean he has to be a normal human. Also, if all the Zion rebels are machines, that also solves the problem you have with Smith being uploaded to Bane - both work, it's either another level of Matrix or they are machines. Personally the clincher for me is just that the "another level" story conclusion is so dissatisfying. I don't think (neither do I hope) that the Wachowskis had brought their entire storyline into one big dream sequence.

[ZylonBane]

On the other hand, your theory is so contrived that it hurts even thinking about it.

[Kamikaze]

These theories are all non-fool-proof, in that they assume the brother's have the intelligence to come up with a realistic, consistent storyline. It could all flop.
The "using energy from humans" bit already shows a lack of thought. That is, unless we assume that Morpheus is being fed bull**** (which is possible), but that also means he has a very warped understanding of thermodynamics.

[Carl]

what i want to know is, why did the machines make the matrix in the first place? if all they were using the humans for was to get energy, than why build a big dream world for them? why not just have them sit there in those pod things?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Zion has to be in the Matrix... it's the only possible explanation for the machines to want it to exist. Given that the machines only care about humans as far as their power-generation potential, they shouldn't care what happens to them after they're unplugged. Yet they do. Therefore, the humans that reject the Matrix are still plugged in. Q.E.D.

The machines care about the humans outside the Matrix simply because they have the capability to further disrupt the quid pro quo.

[Descenterace]

The topic of argument is only a film.  Therefore, it's perfectly possible that if Neo's mind is split between the Matrix and the real world, he can manipulate the Matrix from outside it.

So no, it isn't necessary for Zion to be part of the Matrix for Neo to disrupt those Sentinals.

There's no hard evidence for any theory at the moment.  It's all circumstancial.  So lets not have anyone saying that 'this proves that my theory is right' because that's just YOUR interpretation of the evidence.

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by Sandwich
The machines care about the humans outside the Matrix simply because they have the capability to further disrupt the quid pro quo.

Okay, I should have been more specific. The machines only care about humans as a power source or a potential nuisance. There is no conceivable reason for them to want or even encourange a civilization of humans who have genuinely escaped the Matrix.

And the phrase is status quo. Quid pro quo means something entirely different. Although, considering the nature of the Matrix, quid pro quo might make a certain amount of sense.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Razor

And now you wounder why you got banned? Its your vocabulary and not being able to controll yourself. Learn to keep those expressions to yourself. If you want to throw it all at someone why don't you do it on someone else (like family members, friends...) in stead of this community's members? You tell us that we suck..you call us names (me especially)...you are arrogant ...What point are you trying to prove? That you are something more "superior" compared to us?

I was addressing whomever editted out the '****tard' part of my previous post, not you.

Oh, and I am superior to you. Most notably in my use of grammar and the English language in general.

Don't even start. // Sandwich

[Mr. Vega]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Okay, I should have been more specific. The machines only care about humans as a power source or a potential nuisance. There is no conceivable reason for them to want or even encourange a civilization of humans who have genuinely escaped the Matrix.

My guess is that 1% that doesn't accept the matrix-they are more dangerous if they remain in the system that outside it.

[Stealth]

Originally posted by Black Wolf

First off, Neo is not Human. He's a walking, talking, thinking battery. He can produce energy and electrical fields, and, if he learned to manipulate these fields outside of the matrix, he could, theoreically, produce the required EMP to take out the sentinels, especially at such close range.
we'll just have to find out in Matrix 3 won't we

Also, if Zion was always a part of the matrix, then why wouldn;t something always "feel Different"?
well look at Matrix 1... Neo was part of the matrix his whole life, and even though he was "The One" why did he never "feel different"?

Zion is neccesary to weed out all the people who aren't accepting the Matrix, just like the One is neccesary. Th's why they constantly allow it to be rebuilt. What you don't understand is that the date doesn't matter. In fact, nothing that we can't immediately percieve really matters - all that matters is our beliefs and perceptions of the truth. Take, for example, The crossover between Zion 3 and 4. The Oracl;e pulls the first few people, chosen by Neo Three, out of the Matrix, and tells them it's, say, 2050, long enough after their percieved reality (of 1999) for the AI to hve taken control of the human race. They choose a site and build Zion, and begin to free minds. OK. Fast forward 150 years. They believe it's 2199. The one is freed, Zion is destroyed, and the cyce begins again. It doesn't matter that, in truth, the Oracle freed the first minds, not in 2050, but in 2450 (assuming  200 year cycle for each Zion/One rotation) because everyone believed that it was 2050, and therefore, it was. Time doesn't need to reset, because people perceptions reset.
we'll have to find out in Matrix 3 next month, won't we


If you didn;t understand that, go read 1984. It makes the perception vs. fact statement far better than I could.
i have read 1984

[ZylonBane]

Originally posted by Mr. Vega
My guess is that 1% that doesn't accept the matrix-they are more dangerous if they remain in the system that outside it.

And they're even more dangerous if there's an entire civilization of them!

Am I speaking Esperanto here or what?

[redsniper]

how about this: Zion and the rest of the real world we've seen is real, except for the last part when Neo destroys the sentinels. He doesn't really leave the Matrix after he saves Trinity, he only thinks he does.

[Levyathan]

Then how does Bane still look like himself?

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by ZylonBane
Okay, I should have been more specific. The machines only care about humans as a power source or a potential nuisance. There is no conceivable reason for them to want or even encourange a civilization of humans who have genuinely escaped the Matrix.

Not encourage, no, but assuming that the humans inhabiting Zion are still trapped in a matrix, all the while thinking that they are free, then the machines would have no reason to permanently do away with Zion either. Humans won't try to escape from a situation if they don't even know they are trapped.

Originally posted by ZylonBane
And the phrase is status quo. Quid pro quo means something entirely different. Although, considering the nature of the Matrix, quid pro quo might make a certain amount of sense.

Oops. I thought somehting sounded fishy.

[redsniper]

Originally posted by Levyathan
Then how does Bane still look like himself?

I don't know, I didn't put much thought into my theory, I just thought it would help explain Neo killing the sentinels without raising all kinds of questions about Zion.
EDIT: raising not raiding