Poll

Should people be allowed to select the sex of their child?

Yes
12 (26.7%)
No - never atall
11 (24.4%)
No - except for exceptional medical reasons
22 (48.9%)

Total Members Voted: 45

Voting closed: November 12, 2003, 04:33:29 pm

Author Topic: Should sex selection be legal?  (Read 8777 times)

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Offline Drew

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Should sex selection be legal?
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Sexual identity starts developing well after birth

thats the part i dont get, how can a kid decide his gender.... Hes a dude if he has a dick, shes a girl if she has...well.. u know...
even if you wanted to swich those 2 around [cut, snip/paste ;)] wouldnt a guy, no matter how deformed, be a guy? (and vice versa)
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Offline StratComm

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Should sex selection be legal?
Wow, that's the most ****ed up argument I've seen here in a long time.  You are completely right of course, with the exception of the surgery bit at the end; as I have said before it's selecting an embryo with the desired gender chromosomes, not actual alteration of the embryo at any stage.  This of course means a lot of embryos grown which will never have the oppertunity to grow into a human being (bring on the religious right) but I really don't have a problem with that.  I really can't see the argument that [conscious] life begins at conception as holding any water whatsoever, since there isn't even a primitive nervous system in place for much of the first trimester.  And once it's there, it still takes some time to reach a level of development where it can be argued that you have a human life.

EDIT:  You beat me to the punch Drew, that part above is in response to Stryke 9's post, not yours.  What he means by sexual identity isn't so much the sex of an individual, it's the way they conform to gender roles and the way their bodies develop (through puberty) into a mature adult of one gender or the other.  Like it or not, when we were 5, the difference between us and a girl of the same age had more to do with whether our parents put us in blue jeans and a t-shirt or a dress and how they decided to cut our hair.  The reproductive specilzation doesn't fully come about until much later.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2003, 03:10:24 pm by 570 »
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Offline Rictor

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Should sex selection be legal?
Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Moral qualifiers ("it's unnatural" is basically the more PC evolution of "it's against God's plan", which is a bull****-laden way of saying "I don't like it and can't be bothered to find a real reason why) don't factor in here- if you think something should be banned for all people just because you personally find it wrong, end of story, please, I beg of you- never, ever vote. Or participate in politics in any fashion, ever again. You people are what comprise the everpresent threat of theocratic dictatorship. If there is a reason you find it wrong- fine, find a reason. State it. But if it has anything to do with what some ****ing book says, or your personal unbased gut reactions to something, don't even think about trying to force that on me or anyone I know or I part your hair with a shotgun. And that is my moral code.


I would mostly tend to agree with you, until you realize just how stupid people are. They will follow any trend, any fashion or whatever, no matter how blatantly stupid. Some things are just very wrong or very stupid or both. There are plenty of sick assholes in this world, and their idea of being unique usually involved doing something very repugnant to themselves or to someone else. I believe that I should be able to say "look, this **** is stupid. The people who do it are stupid. Now wash of the black nailpolish, take those spikes out of your dick, and behave like a human being." Case in point, body modification.

Its the natural evolution of tatoos, piercings etc. Not that I have anything against tatoos or piercings, but thats cause I was born in the 80s, so I'm a modern guy. 50 years ago, people would be disgusted by what is today normal. Now, I saw a website (I didn't go looking for it, just saw it on someone else's comp) set up up to showcase the crazy **** people do to themselves. Most of it, you would not believe. A lot of it had to do with mutilation of ye dingly dongly, and its really not pretty stuff. These people think that they're unique or cool or something, but anyone with half a brain can immeditaly tell you thats its wrong and stupid.

Now, what I'm afraid of, is that in 20-30 years, this **** will be as common as tatoos are today. And people won't mind. For the first time in my life, I can relate to that old guy sitting on the park bench, yelling "the world has gone to ****" cause I see a future that I don't like. However, everyone will be used to it, and people won't mind.

Please don't make me post the URl to prove my point, cause I really don't wanna get banned and/or disgust people.

__

Oh and, back on topic :D :D
For medical purposes yes, otherwise no.

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Should sex selection be legal?
Um... okaaaay, first off, I think faddish sex selection is a bit dumber than getting a tatoo, and would be a bit rarer- one is the ordinary product of a drunken night in college, is rather cheap and easy to acquire, and is generally done in a noninvasive fashion that, while you may regret it, makes it so that you're not consciously aware of it every moment of every day. Sex selection is none of these- I'm not saying stupid people won't do it for all the wrong reasons, certainly they will (look at dick piercings)- but is the very very small fraction of one percent who are rich enough to get it done, sane enough to be allowed to do it by a legitimate medical establishment (all procedures of this sort involve at least a very basic mental-health check, and nobody gets, say, artificially inseminated just because they feel like it- this is actually the point where it'll be yet rarer than the nigh-impossible-to-find cockbolt), and mentally imbalanced enough to actually want it really reason enough to ban it for the rest of the populace, when it could otherwise be a good thing in many cases? Some families do have sex-based expectations for their children, and often traumatize those who end up being of the opposite sex- this'd reduce that. Scientific progress is leaning heavily towards tinkering with prenatal biology- stopping this avenue of research up (though it seems a bit crude to me, there are a few small redeeming aspects of it) may well mean stopping up a hundred more advances that would be genuinely and inarguably beneficial. And for what? So twenty lunatics in California have to have the sort of babies they don't want?

There's not a lot of redeeming value to the procedure, and indeed I think that any one good reason why it's unhealthy or dangerous will be more than enough to ban it. But if the only reasons are the same tired bible-thumping that was used to promote eugenics back in the day and reservations about how the short bus crowd will manage to maul modern technology, I'm inclined to think that that's all the more reason to let it be legalized- it'd set a precedent where we don't have to be held back by the retards in our society, but could advance like the smart ones, and don't have to put up with empty preaching by the morally bankrupt right dictating how we can live our lives. It sure beats a society where you can get sued for not advising people that coffee is sometimes hot and we have an upcoming Presidential campaign based partly on hating gays and the rest based on hating foreigners, because it's traditional and God's way according to some rich white men in the Midwest.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2003, 05:10:21 pm by 262 »

 

Offline Drew

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Should sex selection be legal?
Quote
Originally posted by Razor


Well if they are hot that would be great. ;7 :D

id be your only hope wouldnt it razor :D
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Offline Stryke 9

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Should sex selection be legal?
Cool, he made a funny.

What makes you think Razor would have hope there? They'd just have sex with each other instead.

 

Offline Knight Templar

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Should sex selection be legal?
Quote
Originally posted by Drew

Already done. Have you been to any US high school? :D


Have you been to any California High School? :doubt:
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Offline karajorma

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Should sex selection be legal?
My problem with sex selection is that it's the thin edge of a very big wedge. It's basically the first step down the road towards eugenics.

Currently it's only being used to test if a child is male or female but suppose people start saying "well since we're deciding which one to implant why not test to see which one has blue eyes, blond hair, the genes for intelligence, genes for athletic abilities etc". With sex selection legalised these tests would come sooner or later. You couldn't even stop them because if you've said that it's okay for parents to test whether their child is male or female testing whether they are bright or stupid is actually a test that makes more sense.

Now I have no particular problem with designer babies at all. Basically it's just a more refined version of what evolution is doing anyway (the smartest and the prettiest breed more often on average so in general the species gets smarter and prettier). What I have a problem with is that this ability to have smarter and prettier children won't be available to everyone. They would remain available only to people rich enough to afford the £20,000 it costs for a cycle of IVF. So basically you end up with a situation where the rich get smarter and prettier and the rest of the world has to muddle through on their own.
 Under those conditions it would become harder and harder for anyone who isn't rich to get anywhere in life. So basically you end up with a self perpetuating underclass and then you're heading right into an Orwellian nightmare.

So until everyone has the right to do sex selection no one should have it. The only form that should be allowed for medical reasons.

See Stryke. Not everyone against sex selection is doing it because of stupid religious reasons.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2003, 12:34:37 pm by 340 »
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Offline Razor

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Should sex selection be legal?
Quote
Originally posted by Drew

Already done. Have you been to any US high school? :D


No I didn't. If I would ever wanna go to one...it would probably be because:

- I would have only 4 or 5 subjects.
- I would have a lot more spare time
- I could join a basketball team because noone here ever wants to play basketball and that really stinks. :no:

Now about sex crazed girls.....I don't think they are that crazy.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Should sex selection be legal?
Quote
Originally posted by mikhael


Point of fact: 1984 was not about Communism. It was about rampant Socialism. You need to read more about Orwell.
 


It was about dictatorial / totalitarian government IIRC - Orwell was a socialist himself, but he saw the dangers of the one party state as it was applied in Communist Russia (par example). I think you can apply the logic behind 1984 to any form of government where an elite group has power - including facism (ala Italy & Germany in WW2), communism and modern dictatorships.

 It probably stands stronger now than before - especially because of the date issue(the opening few pages, IIRC, describe how winston Smith only knows what the date is because that's what he's been told by the Government).  It's basically about a world where the ruling class has so much power, that even something as basic as the date can be changed to suit their needs.  And we're also now entering a stage where the technology needed for the total oppression described in 1984, is actually possible.

anyways, back on topic - I think a lot of people argguing for pro-choice are forgetting the impact on the child.  True, we may have no choice what we look when we are born regardless but allowing parents to specify sex (as i sort of said earlier) or even more means that they will have very specifci expecations of their child.  That's a very bad thing IMO, becuase it puts pressure on the child to act and be a certain way, which will either cause friction between them and the parents, or put us on the long road towards loss of individuality.

Children should have (within the sensible moral bounds that make society work as a whole) complete freedom in who or what they want to be when they go through their life.  Parental selection of sex is likely to change that, because the motivations behind it will likely affect the child the parents 'expect'.

Plus, the more you can change, the more you expect......

 
you MAY be forgetting something...
SOmeone JUST touched on it... About a girl being a tomboy.  Guess what people, I have not done the research BUT I thik most people have gender issues about transsexualism becuse they felt they were "born in teh wrong body", ie their soul is opposite in regards to their outward form.   Thus you have boys who feel that they are girls inside (not pointing fingers at anyone here ;) but would be cool to hear about...) and girls who gorw up not realising that teh reason they grew up so uncomformtable around men is that they are men on the inside...

   NOW, if you ar open minded enough to accept this kind of "natural mistake", kind of like a cosmic birth defect (sorry!), imagine how much WORSE the situation can be if a couple decides t have a boy or girl and nature intended the opposite. You have the potential of creating a person who may grow up with unrecognized issues taht are gendr related adn suffer all through their life and may not ever have the epipanhy of (gee I am actually the opposite gender!). Especailly if mom and dad never tell their child ("and we wanted a boy so much we made sure of it") :eek:  OMG! You mean you made me male/female no matter what?  This could explain why I like trucks and wrestling at a young age, or ballet and tea parties... (yes stereotyping BUT I'm only trying to present a possible point of view).

   Chew on that and then what do you think???

Above all I think people (no matter what age, but who completely and fully feel that thier is definately a "WRONGNESS" in their gender, need teh opportunity/technology to remedy the situation created by nature or society in order to have a better quality of life. even if this only effects a minority of those who would pursue gender reassignment for the "right reasons" and is abused by teh mass of applicants the fact that those in genuine need HAVE to be heard and helped this option has the MORAL imperitive to be viable...  I mean REALLY! Would you like to be one of these people who feel trapped in the body of teh wrong gender (sexual gratification issues aside), as I man I find it thrilling only if I could "visit" on the weekends. I am a MAN, and thank the universe I AM A MAN and thouroughly enjoy my maleness and my male gender  :nervous:

  This is NOT an issue about POLITICS or RELIGION, it's about common sense...!

In a nut shell if teh parents want o choose fine, BUT be aware of the possible reprocussions. I do believe in genetic manipulation IF you end up with a healthier result, or to avoid a defect.

   ala GATTACA (ummm a geneticly enhanced UMA THURMAN!) sexxy! (is there a drooling icon?) D'oh! :eek:     LOL!
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Offline StratComm

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Should sex selection be legal?
:confused:

Ok, I'll admit, this discussion has gone in a way completely contrary to my understanding of science, religion, or any other debate.  I still maintain (as I have said, what, 3 times now?) that under no circumstances would the actual genetic makeup of the lump of cells that will eventually give rise to a human being if allowed to develop naturally (commonly called a zygote, embryo, or fetus depending on the stage of development) be altered in any way.  That would require complete genetic restructuring of every cell in the mass, and that simply cannot be done.  That would be genetic therapy to some whole new level, and we can't even do the basic level yet.  So there would be no manipulation of the developing child in the mother's womb (and there wouldn't be anyway).  

However, an interesting point has been raised by Star Dragon, whether he realizes it or not.  This point is the emergence of consciousness, or as Star Dragon alludes to, the origin of a human soul.  If you believe that your soul is created long before you are born, then the idea of being placed in a body not meant for you is somewhat (make that very) discomforting.  It's also something I can't agree with, since there are too many factors that determine who we are in growing up; things like parental and peer influences, the conditions (including religious and moral) in which one is raised, and so on.  However, that is a philosophical debate more suited to an argument on those terms.  To blame the existance of girls who are tomboys or people who feel the need to become transsexuals on "being placed in the wrong body" isn't something I've ever really liked either, but it does go somewhat hand-in-hand with one's soul being independend of environmental factors.  I think tomboys are girls who grew up around a bunch of boys, and who never had enough experience with the social constructs of what it means to be a woman to ever take those on.  And I really think transsexuals need psychiatric help, but that goes along with the fact that I believe that we are a product of our experiences above everything else, and that gender roles are a largely socially defined phenomena (although one of the oldest and most deeply rooted ones).

Quote
Originally posted by karajorma
Under those conditions it would become harder and harder for anyone who isn't rich to get anywhere in life. So basically you end up with a self perpetuating underclass and then you're heading right into an Orwellian nightmare.


Quite the opposite actually, you get a return to the aristocratic society that we all like to think we are getting away from.  Orwell made the point quite clear in 1984:  it isn't important who is in power, but rather that someone is in power (the parent-child association was practically gone in that book, so it's the composition of the someone that is constantly changing), and that the status quoe of someone holding absolute power remains indefinitely.  In fact, one of the most discomforting images in that book was of the child ratting out his parents to The Party, and you wouldn't get that under a system where the rich and powerful are continuing a forced evolution path.  What you really get happening with eugenics is an exponential stratification along socio-economic bounds, and it can be argued (quite convincingly) that this is happening anyway.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2003, 01:15:34 pm by 570 »
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Offline karajorma

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Should sex selection be legal?
As for the Orwellian comment I simply meant a government with absolute power over everyone else and with no way of ever removing them.

The reason why it would be different from the aristocratic societies of the past is that unlike the past the rich wouldn't just think they were better than the rest of us. They actually would be. Worse still the longer they remained in power the more different they would actually become from everyone else.
 
This is very different from anything that is happening now. No matter how rich you are there is a good chance that there is someone poorer, smarter and more more athletic than you. The rich people aren't particularly breeding for intelligence etc any more than the rest of us. The only thing they have in their favour is money and the benifits that derive from that (better health, education etc). There's always the chance that the common man can pull them down again if they get too high and mighty just because of their money (the example of past aristocracies are an excellent example of that happening).

But if you allow people to select for traits like intelligence the gap between the rich and poor will open up wider than it has ever been in the past and it will get harder and harder to ever pull them down.
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Offline Grey Wolf

Should sex selection be legal?
I repeat: I don't like this because I'm cynical about human nature and I don't trust the general public to use science for proper purposes. Or to quote Agent K from the movie Men in Black: "A person is smart; people are dumb panicky dangerous animals and you know it."
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Offline aldo_14

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Should sex selection be legal?
1984 actually implied that the governemnt does change, but the conditions for the people don't.... basically, that the oppressed lower class will lead to a 'revolutionary' middle class, who eventually wrest power from the ruling class.  And then the middle class - now the upper class - takes power and becomes the same as those they replaced.  And nothing changes for the vast majority - the proles.  Of cours,e because they have no real power, the proles have the closest thing to freedom - but they also don;t understand it.  I think these 2 points are referenced in the middle of the book.

 

Offline Stryke 9

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Should sex selection be legal?
Kara: Never said everyone opposed it on purely irrational grounds, simply that I hadn't seen anything but that up to that point.

Anyway, yes, you raise a very good point. I hadn't exactly considered it from quite that angle- dunno about smart people getting laid more often or otherwise being more fertile, but other than that... it's quite possible. However, since all they're really doing is selecting from the existing fertilized eggs, they couldn't add any genes that the parents already had, and both intelligence and (to a lesser extent) athleticism are famously hard to pinpoint in the genome- we can eliminate some congenital traits, maybe select the combination of genes that comes closest to fitting some template with higher odds of producing a genius or a sports star, but that's all a matter of percentages, and in an average couple, with average genes in the family, the improvement in the odds over chance would be pretty minimal. Of course, if we got to the point where they refined the process, or started "cleaning" genes Gattaca-style, that'd be a different story, but at the moment the threat isn't quite so huge.

However, it would be a problem nonetheless, and I reverse my opinion.

  

Offline karajorma

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Should sex selection be legal?
I know that the genes for intelligence are hard to find but lets face it we've only been looking for 50 years and the Human Genome Project only wrapped up a couple of years back.

As for them only having what's present in the fertilised eggs to work from I agree but if you think about it that's exactly what natural selection has to work with and look what it can do.
 Add an artificial selection pressure and you can speed up things to an enormous degree. Look what we've managed to do to the wolf in only a few thousend years of selective breeding.

I doubt any major problems from selective breeding would appear quickly but I see no point in allowing it to become a big problem in a few hundred years time if it can be stopped now.

Quote
Originally posted by Stryke 9
Kara: Never said everyone opposed it on purely irrational grounds, simply that I hadn't seen anything but that up to that point.


I did mention that I agreed with Aldo that it set a dangerous precident but yeah. Even I was quite vague about what was so dangerous about it.
« Last Edit: November 14, 2003, 04:53:28 pm by 340 »
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Offline Setekh

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Should sex selection be legal?
Yes, they are. That's the central irony of 1984, which is paralleled in Winston's own life - the proles at large have a huge amount of freedom, but it's hidden from them. In that light, you could argue that they had no freedom at all.
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Offline Stryke 9

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1984? Orwell knew more about the way politics works than basically anyone else I've read. The proles were free, absolutely so- as Winston said in there, were the Party to have become too bothersome they could have shrugged them off with virtually no effort at all. What kept them in subjugation was no power the Party exerted over them, but merely their own apathy- like people the world over, since time immemorial, they simply didn't know, didn't care, and didn't want to be bothered to improve their lives. Nothing had to be "hidden" from them, no real deception or oppression was necessary, just some quick diversions (i.e. the war) to keep the mildly perceptive few from noticing anything else and keep the rest busy.

To paraphrase another good (though lesser, and far less famous) writer, all the majority of people care about is decent television, spare change for some booze, and a blowjob every Saturday night. Anything beyond that is outside of their range of interest- the proles weren't oppressed in 1984, they were freely ****ing themselves with their own lack of motivation. This is the same thing Orwell, and indeed most perceptive observers of the political scene, have seen since the beginning of time- politics, the greater issues, things like "freedom" and "rights", are fought between a miniscule minority of the populace. At the utmost, the rest of the population will occasionally be dragged reluctantly into the fray by a really serious war, and even there they manage to make themselves ineffectual and largely sedentary.

The Outer Party members, on the other hand, do care- they're the ones who'd provide a threat to stability, the intellectuals who aren't actually in power, but may at some point wish to become so or influence those who are. And that's why all the horrific... "attentions" described in the book are directed at them- they're the danger. And they are not free- through a brilliantly clever combination of fabrication, police state, and manipulation of humanity's own worst characteristics (they're petty, they distrust one another inherently, they're concerned almost solely for their own safety and well-being; such a group will never rise to power, or indeed anything else). It's partly self-inflicted injury, but nothing they really could help even were they aware of it and were they to desire to, so there's no freedom there.

One thing I think Orwell missed a bit is the potential danger of Inner Party members. It's practically a truism that when you have absolute power shared among a group of individuals, there are going to be a lot of dead tyrants in very short order- megalomaniacs don't share power well. It's something that's touched upon, but not really emphasized in the book, because after all Orwell was writing it for the modern equivalent of the "Outer Party" and "Proles".

Also worth noticing is the structure that he sets up in the book isn't exclusive to Socialist dictatorships, tyrranies, or much of anywhere else- every government has an oligarchy that maintains its power, to one extent or another, by the same strategies he describes. It's a little bit silly to say it's about Communism, or Socialism, or Fascism, because whatever his intent (and he was more than clever enough to have noticed the parallels to his own government, and those around him) it's every government, and specifically every bad government, that's ever existed.

 
Should sex selection be legal?
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