Author Topic: The Last Samurai  (Read 4049 times)

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Has anyone seen the trailers for this movie? It's looking very good, I'm quite eager to see it. I also understand the distributor is giving "sneak peaks" tomorrow. Personally, I can't wait.
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Offline Carl

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Another "white people are evil" movie. I can't wait for it to (hopefully) burn and die.
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Offline mikhael

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You say "another 'white people are evil' movie" like white people aren't evil. Everyone is evil. Anyway, I didn't get that vibe about the movie at all. I got a "americans in japan are arrogant stuck up pricks"--an idea that is borne out by my experiences with my fellow americans there.

Anyway, the movie looks pretty cool and I'm looking forward to seeing it--though it'll be on DVD or PPV, since my wife has no interest.
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Offline adwight

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That one is definately on my must see list, so I'll be going to see it.
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Offline Carl

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
You say "another 'white people are evil' movie" like white people aren't evil. Everyone is evil. Anyway, I didn't get that vibe about the movie at all. I got a "americans in japan are arrogant stuck up pricks"--an idea that is borne out by my experiences with my fellow americans there.


not any more evil than the japanese. and i don't know what the americans you were with were like, but they don't represent the whole country.

i'm just so sick of all these anti-western movies. dances with wolves and roots and what not. burn them all.
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Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
You say "another 'white people are evil' movie" like white people aren't evil. Everyone is evil. Anyway, I didn't get that vibe about the movie at all. I got a "americans in japan are arrogant stuck up pricks"--an idea that is borne out by my experiences with my fellow americans there.
Well, until relatively recently every nation in the West looked down on the Japanese.  The world used to be a hell of a lot more racist place, especially when you go back into the 19th century and before.
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Offline mikhael

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Quote
Originally posted by Carl

not any more evil than the japanese. and i don't know what the americans you were with were like, but they don't represent the whole country.

i'm just so sick of all these anti-western movies. dances with wolves and roots and what not. burn them all.

Guess the truth hurts. The people I was around, Carl, were my fellow US Navy sailors and american tourists. As a culture, we don't seem to behave very well when we go overseas. We're not evil, no. And it not just white people, either. However, as far as ethnic groups with long, bloody histories that touch the entire planet, Europeans (and by extension americans) have had a damned impressive run. The single longest and bloodiest and ugliest in recorded history. Its not indicative of you, or me, or Shrike (i only mention Shrike because I'm responding to him too) or the rest, but it is history that should be learned from.

Quote
Originally posted by Shrike
Well, until relatively recently every nation in the West looked down on the Japanese.  The world used to be a hell of a lot more racist place, especially when you go back into the 19th century and before.

I've got a wonderful book around here somewhere called "Lies My Teacher Told Me", which examines and debunks a lot of the mythology that gets taught as American (USAian) "history". One of the best, and earliest, examples given is the of Columbus' discovery of North America (with a side discussion of the other cultures that discovered it earlier, like the Chinese and the Vikings). Apparently, in Columbus own diaries, there was this amazing shift in attitude toward the natives of Haiti. When he arrived, he described them as intelligent and friendly and the most wonderful of people. Within a few years, however, after Spain had decided the island would make an excellent location for a colony, he wrote that they were savage, beast-like and of sub-standard intellect. Of course, in the intervening time between the first and second entries, he had become convinced that the island could make him rich.

Obligatory Explanatory Note: the Columbus information is taken from the historical diary of Columbus, not from American "history" text books. Some might decry this as "revisionist history", but I'd have to disagree on the grounds that the original source should hold far greater authority than some textbook from 500yrs after the fact that claims to be authoritative, but provides no evidence of its claims.
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Offline Carl

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what lie does that debunk? that colombus was a nice person? i've never read that in a school book.
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Offline Carl

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
However, as far as ethnic groups with long, bloody histories that touch the entire planet, Europeans (and by extension americans) have had a damned impressive run.


only because we got the tech first. any other group would have done the same. just look at the africans with their tribal warfare. imagine that spreading across the globe.
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Offline Bobboau

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yeah we stoped praiseing Colombus bout... 15-20 years ago (I didn't know the Chineese found the Americas)

I can beleve US Navy sailors and tourists act like arrogant stuck up pricks. but surely there mustbe some normal people, maybe some students or busness people (ehh, maybe not) that help to counter act the idiots
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Offline Shrike

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
I've got a wonderful book around here somewhere called "Lies My Teacher Told Me", which examines and debunks a lot of the mythology that gets taught as American (USAian) "history". One of the best, and earliest, examples given is the of Columbus' discovery of North America (with a side discussion of the other cultures that discovered it earlier, like the Chinese and the Vikings). Apparently, in Columbus own diaries, there was this amazing shift in attitude toward the natives of Haiti. When he arrived, he described them as intelligent and friendly and the most wonderful of people. Within a few years, however, after Spain had decided the island would make an excellent location for a colony, he wrote that they were savage, beast-like and of sub-standard intellect. Of course, in the intervening time between the first and second entries, he had become convinced that the island could make him rich.

Obligatory Explanatory Note: the Columbus information is taken from the historical diary of Columbus, not from American "history" text books. Some might decry this as "revisionist history", but I'd have to disagree on the grounds that the original source should hold far greater authority than some textbook from 500yrs after the fact that claims to be authoritative, but provides no evidence of its claims.
Ok, but what does that prove?  Nothing.  Singling out Americans in reference to the movie is silly, because that was the prevailing western attitude towards Japan at that time.
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Offline mikhael

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I single out americans, Shrike, because I am one. In particular, I was an american in Japan, with other americans. I can't really say what its like to be a Canadian in Japan, or an Englishman in Japan, now can I? Based on the previews I've seen of the movie, its like this: some Japanese warlord is going against tradition and wants a westerner to teach them a new way to fight. They hire an arrogant american war hero to do the teaching. The warlord gets killed, and the arrogant american gets captured, and ends up having to learn a bit of humility and how to get by in fuedal japan. he ends up learning to respect the culture and going native and helps defend his new home against his former countrymen. I don't know if that's the plot, or what. That's just the feeling I get from watching the extended trailer in the theatre right before Matrix Revolutions. I never got the feeling that this is one of Carl's "Hate Whitey!" movies. I only respond to Carl, because he brought it up.

I mention the book in passing, because it provides very real, very clear examples of the things that European cultures have done over the centuries. The US is an example of a European culture, regardless of which continent we happen to be on. It does not prove anything, but merely expands on an idea.

Quote
Originally posted by Carl

only because we got the tech first. any other group would have done the same. just look at the africans with their tribal warfare. imagine that spreading across the globe.

Shows how much world history you know. I seem to recall the Chinese had gunpowder AND rockets for hundreds of years before the Europeans. It took European warring to turn fireworks into siege weapons. Its not about who had the technology first, its how it was used.

Quote
Originally posted by Bobboau
I can beleve US Navy sailors and tourists act like arrogant stuck up pricks. but surely there mustbe some normal people, maybe some students or busness people (ehh, maybe not) that help to counter act the idiots

Yeah, there's a few, but they're the vast minority. I did my best to blend in while I was there. I was quiet, respectful, attentive, polite, and most importantly, considerate. I was one of the few. Its no wonder we catch such bad raps everywhere in the world. We swagger around swinging our dicks everywhere we go, declaring our superiority.

Meh. I'll shut up. I'm letting my own prejudices get out of control, just as bad as the idiots I was talking about.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 01:50:21 am by 440 »
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Quote
Originally posted by Carl


not any more evil than the japanese. and i don't know what the americans you were with were like, but they don't represent the whole country.

i'm just so sick of all these anti-western movies. dances with wolves and roots and what not. burn them all.


That doesn't seem to me to be the best analogy ... the Indian situation was very much a race vs. race movie, where as Last Samurai gives me the impression of being Culture vs. Progress. Why? Well, the Samurai were an anacronism in 1876 - and everybody knew it. Hell, if you look at the trailer, you see the one guy say flat-out "This is the end of the Samurai". Moreso, it was in many ways a deliberate sacrifice - the Indians milked the white settlers for all the guns and horses they could get, while the Samurai's defining feature is in his refusal to advance with the times. This is less a white power movie than a sort of romanticized tragedy about change - you could probably change the name to The Last Cowboy and get a similar effect.

I could be wrong, of course, in fact I'm almost certainly - I haven't seen Last Samurai, or Dances With Wolves for that matter. Still, though the Samurai may be as distant a memory as the cowboy Japan is still around and :nervous: neuroutic as ever. I don't see why we westerners should feel bad :)

Digression - I can find a striking parallel in the story of King Kamehameha of Hawaii (also to be made into a big-budget epic) and his unification of the Hawaiian islands through a combination of diplomacy and kicking the ass out of his enemies with British guns. Would that be considered an anti-western movie? (Especially since Hawaii is no longer an independent nation).
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And, referring to mikhail, I'm pretty sure tourists in general, and military tourists in particular, are the lowest breed of scum to ever roam the Earth :)
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Offline Carl

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Quote
Originally posted by mikhael
Shows how much world history you know. I seem to recall the Chinese had gunpowder AND rockets for hundreds of years before the Europeans. It took European warring to turn fireworks into siege weapons.


only because they had the insite first :p
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Offline Stryke 9

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I wonder... What, exactly, is this need y'all have to be loved over the entire planet? And how does burning any evidence to the contrary help anything?

Anyway. Movie. Never heard of it. Will have to find out if it's crap or not shortly, I suppose, sounds kinda interesting in a Hollywoodish way.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 03:44:36 am by 262 »

 

Offline 01010

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I saw the trailer and it looked pretty good, can't say that Tom Cruise really inspired me to go see it though, I don't like him, he's one of THEM
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Offline diamondgeezer

Is this movie supposed to have any historical basis? Cos somehow I can't believe 19thC Japan would allow foreigners to enter the coutry and lead their armies. No offense to the place, but Japan has had a hella isolationist and xenophobic history...

 

Offline 01010

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Quote
Originally posted by diamondgeezer
Is this movie supposed to have any historical basis? Cos somehow I can't believe 19thC Japan would allow foreigners to enter the coutry and lead their armies. No offense to the place, but Japan has had a hella isolationist and xenophobic history...


If it does have any historical basis, it's probably about as accurate as U-571 or Braveheart. Hollywood is notoriously reluctant to acknowledge events as they truly happened. Hey ho.
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Offline Stryke 9

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Whaddaya mean? The Americans cracked Enigma, right? Right???

Anyway. It sounds, from what little I've heard, that it doesn't matter whether it's historically accurate or not, it's got a (weakish)point that has little to do with genuine history.

And besides, it's been obvious for a long time that Hollywood thinks no movie will sell at all in the US unless it prominently features Americans. Hell, look at League of Extraordinary Gentlemen. Which is funny, because a lot of the most famous movies of all time didn't have much of anything of the US in them at all.
« Last Edit: November 29, 2003, 07:45:02 am by 262 »