[Rictor]

This should be implemented worldwide, even in the countries not currently on the "damn foreigners" list. Even the countries exempt from this law should comdemn it, becuase to do nothing would be to bow down to the sheer power of stupidity. Its like when someone goes around stealing people's lunch, and then you feel all proud cause he took mercy on you and decided to leave you alone.

I strongly hope Canada comdens this one.

[Levyathan]

Originally posted by Pez
Styxx, you better watch out for all those fearsome american terrorists.

Actually, it's probably easier to find American terrorists flying to other countries than Brazilian ones. Mostly because almost every 'terrorist attack' that happens here is planned by criminals that are already in jail.

[Knight Templar]

Originally posted by aldo_14
"It's amazing I won. I was running against peace, prosperity, and incumbency."

(George W Bush speaking  to the Swedish PM on 14 June 2001, unaware the cameras were rolling)

[Rictor]

Exactly. How anyone can think that he's an decent and honest man, even when he himself does not, baffles me.

[Knight Templar]

Well actually, I was wtf'ing the ligitimacy of the quote... however fitting it may be.

[Shiva Archon]

I can't believe how many people here are donning tinfoil hats and screaming police state.  Totalitarianism!?  Give me a freakin' break.  Sure it's easy to point at America from half a world away and claim we're "descending into tyranny" while giggling with glee, but you're utterly wrong.  I'm literally surrounded by anti-Bush anti-Iraq anti-Republican far-leftists...I'll let you guys know when the jackboots drop from black helicopters to take them away in the night.

Just because you disagree with the policies of the current administration doesn't make Bush a dictator.  I'm also curious about the legitimacy and the context of that Bush quote.

As for the original post, maybe I'm missing the boat here but how does allowing immigrants to work here translate to "police state"?

Don't brush off the Reagan assassination attempt so eagerly, kara.  There's no difference between an assassination and an attempted assassination besides the competency of the gunman.

[mikhael]

Since, I'm sitting less than half a world away, Shivan Archon, I'm going to agree with you. We don't have a police state.

The only thing between us and a police state, however, is people watching the government, and doing their damnedest to make sure that as many people as possible know what the government is trying to slip by. You cannot ever completely trust those in power. That's one of the core principles of our Constitution. That's why there's THREE branches of government, and a second amendment.

Things start with the weakening of a protection here and adding regulation there. In isolation, these are not necessarily bad things. When you start taking the long view, however, its easy to see where things could be headed. Wanting to make sure things never go as bad as they could is not "donning a tinfoil hat". Its doing your patriotic duty.

When did wanting to protect the people's freedoms become wrong? When did wanting to make sure your government was accountable for its actions become the province of tinfoil hat conspiracy theorists? And isn't the very idea that such normal, sane government watching has become the realm of the tinfoil hats a good sign that the country is headed in the wrong direction?

[Krackers87]

oh god, now all of mexico is coming to get "temporary" citizenship.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by Shiva Archon
Just because you disagree with the policies of the current administration doesn't make Bush a dictator.  I'm also curious about the legitimacy and the context of that Bush quote.

Don't brush off the Reagan assassination attempt so eagerly, kara.  There's no difference between an assassination and an attempted assassination besides the competency of the gunman.

Mikhael makes the point nicely. America isn't a police state at the moment but these sorts of laws are often the beginning of a slippery slope.

[Rictor]

Well, one of the definitions of a dictator is that he siezed power through illegal means. This can be either a coup, or by the rigging of elections. The entire world pretty much agree that thats what happened (not the coup, the elections) and there has been ample evidence to prove it.

If you even think about posting "No, its not true, he won fair and square", please have be ready to refute with concrete evidence all the claims made about how Bush stole the election. The fact is, Al Gore should havve won. Now, that that I think Gore would have been a good president, but he would have been a hell of a lot better than what you've got now.

Oh and, yeah pretty much agree with mikhael. Its you duty as a citizen to keep the government in check. Here's another way to think of it. Those in power want more power, ideally they wan't comlpete power. The only things that are stopping them are

a)skepticism and dissent (defined as holding the government espobsible for their actions and demanding that they be ethical and fair in their actions) on the part of the citizens and

b)The illusion that the government is a just and noble institution who's goals are only to better the lives of its citizens and the people of the world. If the people think they're living in a democracy, they won't rebel too much. As long and the illusion s there, its good enough.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Shiva Archon
 I'm also curious about the legitimacy and the context of that Bush quote.

Well, firstly it's all over the web on various sites, both news and otherwsie.

Secondly, it's true in every respect.  He was running against the incumbent vice-President, a successful economy, and a generally peaceful world situation - at least so far as the US was concerned*
(*Insofar as I can remeber...twas several years ago)

It's worth remebering that Hitler gained power in Germany legally* - and suceeded in destroying German democracy by misdirecting the attention of the public.  Whilst Bush in no Hitler (he's more dumb than insane), it's a classic case study in how a citizenship can be made to ignore the erosion of their long term rights.
(* the Nazi party was never the most popular in Germany.  But it did form a coalition with the largest - largely to counter the threat of the growing Communicst party - a condition of which was to make Hitler the Chancellor of Germany.)

[vyper]

Lets not kid ourselves the Democrats are as bad, if not worse, than Bush's Republican party. At least the right wing admits its ruthless and completely exploitative.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by vyper
Lets not kid ourselves the Democrats are as bad, if not worse, than Bush's Republican party. At least the right wing admits its ruthless and completely exploitative.

Shame they don't admit to being bald faced liars, or cowards-cum-warhawks (or is that a chicken hawk? I dunno).

But the Republicans DO deny that they are out to screw the people. Remember Bush's taxcut? the one that was supposed to help the middle class? The same one that gave most of its cuts to the richest 1%? Yeah. That was completely ruthless and exploitive and i don't recall them admitting it.

[aldo_14]

Isn't the US government/budget running at a record deficit anyways?

(could be mistaken, and I can't be arsed to check)

[mikhael]

As a matter of fact YES, it is. In fact, in three years it went from a record SURPLUS to a record deficit. Three successive years of tax cuts for the richest americans and corporations couldn't POSSIBLY have had anything to do with that, though.

[Shiva Archon]

I agree the government needs to be watched, and I'm a strong supporter of the 2nd Amendment and checks and balances.  However, it seems to me that people are unnecessarily blowing things out of proportion.  Trying to argue via slippery slope is a fallacious argument and proves nothing.  "Descending into tyranny" and "The terrorists won" are examples of falsely assuming that current security steps are automatically going to result in totalitarianism.

And the election was not rigged, Rictor.  Go ahead, hit me with whatever you got, I'm ready to refute it.  If you don't like Bush's policies, use your democratic power and don't vote for him.  Vote for Democrats in the congressional elections (or are those rigged as well?).

Aldo - Yeah, the US gov't is in a huge deficit.  Tax cuts + war + excessive spending don't mix well.  One of my problems with Bush is he spends too much domestically, but I digress...

Mikhael - Every economist in every paper I've read credits the Bush economic strategy with the current boom in the American economy.  I agree it's partly the business cycle, but all worries of "double dip" recession seemed to evaporate now that those tax cuts have boosted American business.

[Ace]

Tax cuts booming American business? Tell that to the people on unemployment.

Oh that's right, social security, unemployment, and all of the other safety nets for people should be removed because they're evil socialist/communist constructs! How dare they pollute the US of A!

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Shiva Archon

Mikhael - Every economist in every paper I've read credits the Bush economic strategy with the current boom in the American economy.

Everyone credits Bush for stomping so thoroughly on Afghanistan too, but they forget that it was Clinton's military that did it.

"The Terrorists Won" is not assuming that the current security steps are automatically going to result in totalitarianism. "The Terrorists Won" is an indication that their purposes have been fulfilled. Terrorists seek to instill Terror (hey, look at that. Terror. Terrorism. What will they think of next?). They did that. The American people are reacting to things out of fear, irrationally and foolishly. The American Government is doing the same. Look at the USA-PATRIOT act. A bigger abrogation of civil liberties has not been seen in this country since BEFORE THE REVOLUTION. We have "terror alerts" now, and we've got every civilian jumping at shadows wondering which one of their fellow passengers migh have a weapon in his underwear. We're introducing "security" measures that don't provide actual security, just the illusion of security. This is a terrified populace. This is a populace that got its ass handed to it on the backs of four airliners (does anyone ever remember the other two? christ!).

We're not automatically headed into totalitarianism, yet. As long as there are those of us around who are willing to do our duty and point out the abusive measures being taken, then we haven't quite made it to a totalitarian way of life. Not yet.

[mikhael]

--snip--

[Stryke 9]

Kara: And Saddam was pretty popular, no? I mean, ****, look at what we're mired in in Iraq now. Never mind that he had to put in place the most ****ing elaborate security system on the face of the damned planet to keep from getting blown away by some Kurd and it was a matter of time even with that. Yes, Saddam survived his own misrule, but looking at the things he had to do to stay alive it was a life lived in constant fear and it's genuinely shocking he lasted as long as he did.

Besides which, Iraq did have quite a bit of gun control, particularly relative to its neighbors. It's not like you could just run down to the Baghdad corner market and pick up a Kalashnikov with your fruit. Well, then you couldn't, such isn't entirely clear now, what with the sudden proliferation of grenade launchers and general anarchy.

Vyper: Indeed. But the virtue of an honest villain is lost when nobody will fight them anyway. The Bushies are upfront about their rapacity because they have no need to hide it any more. The Democrat oligarchs still do, because they aren't in the same safe position as Bush and co.- and because of that are infinitely preferable.

Mik: I think al Qaeda is out for a bit more than sophomoric scares on a mass level. They're fighting a war, not running bets on how stupid they can get dem dumb Yanks to act.