[neo_hermes]

Spoiler:

I thought i saw peices of the 2nd person fly Behind where he stood

[aldo_14]

(took a while to figure this out and write it)

I think the audio goes
(Gunner, then pilot so far as I can guess, from the firing on the truck.  Second truck they refer to here is the car)

"wait for movment by the truck"
"movement right there"
"roger, he's wounded"
"hit him"
"I'm hitting the truck"
"hit the truck, go forward of it and hit him"

EDIT
Gunner sounds almost reluctant, weirdly enough... but he is told to go for him by the pilot.  i'm not sure, but i think it may be Yugoslavia based on the simple fact that there's a tractor there)

[Gloriano]

whoa:eek:  really terriple clip i seen dead's but something like  that sees it's just terriple

[Rictor]

Yup, saw this on Blues a few days ago. What I have to say has already been said. They were obviously farmers, and posed no threat. But I guess they all look alike don't they...

aldo: Hard though it may be to believe, a tractor is a common farm vehicle, and has occassionaly been sighted outside of Yugoslavia.

[aldo_14]

I am, as you well know, considering the recent theatres of war which the Us has been engaged in... of those, the one which seemed most likely to have farmland (as it appears to be - i.e. ploughed, seems a bit rutted) is, IMO Yugoslavia.  Tenous, granted, but there is logic.

NB:  they may not have been obvious farmers.  for one thing, it appears to be nighttime, which isn't particularly popular time for ploughing the fields round my bit.

  That open-top truck could, for example be used to transport troops or partisans.  Without knowing the origin, I can't pass judgement on the validity of the attack - they could very well have been enemy guerillas meeting up in an isolated region, for example. Or potentially drug dealers, although I'm not sure if Us operations use that level of force (maybe in Columbia)

Regardless, it is somewhat tasteless that someone decided this should be made public.

[Zeronet]

According to ABC news, they obtained the footage and showed it. Appears to be 3 iraqi insurgents handling a cylinderical object 4 feet or so, maybe a RPG through the thermal camera of an Apache.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109.html

[mikhael]

Originally posted by 01010
That's what I like to call overkill.

From the ABC article:

Army officials acknowledged that the 30 mm cannons used by the Apache gunners were far bigger than what was needed to kill the men, but said it is the smallest weapon the Apaches have.

Yeah. That's definately overkill.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Zeronet
According to ABC news, they obtained the footage and showed it. Appears to be 3 iraqi insurgents handling a cylinderical object 4 feet or so, maybe a RPG through the thermal camera of an Apache.

http://abcnews.go.com/sections/WNT/US/apache_video_040109.html

Ahh, good spot. I was hoping someone could come up with a news article on the video.

[01010]

Originally posted by mikhael


From the ABC article:


Yeah. That's definately overkill.

An Apache against infantry would have more than a slight advantage I should imagine and a 30mm round I would  think wouldn't take too long to tear you in half given a few rounds.

That is however only in the context of this video, I know nothing of the situation prior to or after this.

[mikhael]

I was agreeing with you 01010. The apache's 30mm cannon IS overkill against three guys on the ground.

[01010]

Originally posted by mikhael
I was agreeing with you 01010. The apache's 30mm cannon IS overkill against three guys on the ground.

That's ok, I thought you were being sarcastic but you weren't. Guess the ole' sarcasm detector ain't working right today.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Zeronet
Appears to be 3 iraqi insurgents handling a cylinderical object 4 feet or so, maybe a RPG through the thermal camera of an Apache.
 

Heh.  Guess I was about 1000km out, then....

[Admiral Nelson]

Its worth noting that this clip is only about half of the original.
In the first part, the guy in the pickup truck stops, gets out, and talks to the guy in the larger truck. Next he seems to look straight at the Apache, and seems to realize that they are being watched. He then reaches back into the pickup truck, and pulls out what looks like a RPG or shoulder fired SAM. He runs out into the field to the left, drops the launcher, and runs back. This is the object the guy pulls the cloth cover off of in the clip.
There is also a lot of radio discussion back and forth between the Apache crew and their controller of what they are seeing,and  what they should do. Clearance to fire doesn't come for 5 minutes or so.
30mm cannon rounds aren't overkill against guys with man portable missles, if you ask me.... I'm not sure that anyone watching this video really has enough context into the situation to pass judgement on the crew's actions....

[mikhael]

If there was a clear threat, then unloading with the chin gun is justified. That doesn't change the fact that its overkill, Admiral Nelson. However, if, as you say, they went into the field and dropped the launcher and walked away, unloading the with the chin gun is NOT justified (based on the limited information we have here).

Of course, I'm perfectly willing to err on the side of the Apache pilot and the gunner. They're the ones that are there and I'm not. I know for a fact that if I was in any doubt about my own safety, I'd have carved my initials in them with the chin gun and not given it a second thought.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by aldo_14
I am, as you well know, considering the recent theatres of war which the Us has been engaged in... of those, the one which seemed most likely to have farmland (as it appears to be - i.e. ploughed, seems a bit rutted) is, IMO Yugoslavia.  Tenous, granted, but there is logic.

Yeah, I know man.

Originally posted by aldo_14

Regardless, it is somewhat tasteless that someone decided this should be made public.

I think its just the opposite. I think its great that this was made public, it gives us a glimpse into the actions of the US military, which would otherwise go totally unquestion. I don't mean this in a completely negative way. Its better to have public scrutiny than have none, regardless of who is right or wrong.

As for the SAM, I don't really know. Its seems like a excuse made up after the fact. I'de have to see the full video to make a judgement. And even then, why did they finish off the wounded guy? They could have just as easily left him there, he was in no position to threaten their safety, and ground troops could have been called in to apprehend him...

[Deepblue]

Because he would have healed, then would be very, very angry with the military.

And if you think of the other options the apach had (Hellfire anyone?) it is less overkill then it could have been.

[Rictor]

No, what I meant was not to let him get away, but to apprehend him. He was in no shape to flee, they could have left him there for or or maybe even days and he wouldn't have run off.

Oh and, yeah I agree about the overkill. If thats the lightest weapons they got, then there's not really much choice.

[Deepblue]

Do you think he would rather lay dying on the ground with his guts blown out? Or do you think he would rather end it?

[demon442]

An Explanation

The pilot and gunner claim that the chin turret was the smallest weapon they had(most likely true), but the human-rights advocates claim that it was overkill.   And what would you have them do; if they could not use anything more than a sling-shot on well-armed militia that intend to kill you and the 2 other people with you?

To be perfectly honest, I see nothing wrong with this clip.  It is a standard military reaction to a probable hostile threat.  While I do not advocate the US invading Iraq like Germany invaded Poland, I am but one voice in a sea of cattle.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by demon442
The pilot and gunner claim that the chin turret was the smallest weapon they had(most likely true), but the human-rights advocates claim that it was overkill.   And what would you have them do; if they could not use anything more than a sling-shot on well-armed militia that intend to kill you and the 2 other people with you?

The chin turret IS the smallest thing on an Apache. There is no doubt about that. Even so, overkill is when the weapon used goes far beyond the force necessary to take down the target. In this case, its overkill. That doesn't make it wrong for them to have used the turret though. If the men posed a threat (IE, if they really did have an RPG or a LAW or whatever), then using the chin gun was the best option the apache crew had. It doesn't matter if the weapon was overkill: dead is dead. Anything more than deadly force just doesn't matter.