[Gank]

Originally posted by HotSnoJ
It would interesting to note that those may not be father-son lines, but more like (some distant great) grandfather-son lines.

Um, are you saying they are that? Because the book i got them from is quite explicitly says they are father-son. Which ones exactly are you talking about?

[Grey Wolf]

Remember, your copy is translated at least once, if not more.

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Gank


Um, are you saying they are that? Because the book i got them from is quite explicitly says they are father-son. Which ones exactly are you talking about?

Talking about the one and only Bible?

I've read books that explain what I said better, I wish I could remember what they were. hmmm..... I think one is called "A case for Faith" by Lee Strobel. There are a couple books by him that deal with questions concerning weather Christianity is true or not. "Cases" rage from scientific to theological/logical arguments.

Remember, your copy is translated at least once, if not more.

IIRC The Bible is translated form the most reliable ancient documents availible. So each new version is really a new translation based on new information on the language, it's usage, and/or new documents.

[Grey Wolf]

Actually depends on the version. The KJV I believe is translated at least twice, since it was a translation from the Latin, IIRC. The newer versions are usually translated as you said, though.

[mikhael]

And don't forget, the KJV is edited in whatever ways King James felt was necessary to seperate himself and his new Church from the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope.

[Setekh]

Originally posted by mikhael
Funny, here I had this idea for a new forum that I was going to bring up with you admins to address that problem.

I've been enjoying the argument lately. When its not gotten out of hand (cf. Kazan-Liberator), its been amusing and interesting and certainly helpful making my brain work. You're seeing 'argument'. I'm seeing 'healthy debate', for the most part. Sure, there's been a few times where it degenerated into name calling, but the principal participants have managed to pull things back on track, usually.

It's the degenerations that I'm worried about. Just trust me on this one, after thinking about the HLP of today and the HLP of 2001, well, it's certainly a change - I'm not sure about the direction.

Too much to say, anyway. I can recommend some good books for you, though.

[HotSnoJ]

Originally posted by Setekh


It's the degenerations that I'm worried about. Just trust me on this one, after thinking about the HLP of today and the HLP of 2001, well, it's certainly a change - I'm not sure about the direction.

Too much to say, anyway. I can recommend some good books for you, though.

Well you can't forget that for the most part AFAIK we put aside our differences when we mod.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Setekh
It's the degenerations that I'm worried about. Just trust me on this one, after thinking about the HLP of today and the HLP of 2001, well, it's certainly a change - I'm not sure about the direction.

Remind me to talk to you in another venue about my idea. You might--or might not--like it.

Too much to say, anyway. I can recommend some good books for you, though.

I dunno, Steak. Your books don't allow for some of my beliefs. We can discuss it, man to man, in private, but I don't think either of us will get anywhere. I'd enjoy talking about it with you though, I think.

[Stryke 9]

HLP of 2001 I don't remember very well, and I'm reasonably sure you don't, either. Nostalgia does funny things. I do know that recently the forum's been quite a lot more interesting than, say, HLP of mid-2003.


That said, whatever's going wrong could have been averted if only I were given banning powers, and maybe the ability to edit other peoples' posts to say what I want them t- I mean, to be more acceptable to the spirit of the board.

[Grey Wolf]

Originally posted by mikhael
And don't forget, the KJV is edited in whatever ways King James felt was necessary to seperate himself and his new Church from the Roman Catholic Church and the Pope.

You've confused your British monarchy. Henry VIII was the one who broke away. James I was a Stuart, who were far more Catholic than the Plantagenets (sp?). In fact, that's why the Stuarts were overthrown and replaced with the current ruling family.

[Setekh]

@ Hot: yeah, and thank God for that. That's why HLP is here, after all. I have a feeling we lose it a little when we forget why we're all here.

@ Mik: idea, hmmm? Get on ICQ some time. I agree about us probably not going anywhere. But, well, my books don't allow for your beliefs? I read books that don't allow my beliefs all the time. If new stuff makes more sense, I try to change. A bit like science. It's not a 'perfectly objective process', but it never will be, will it? Anyway, indeed, let's have a chat sometime.

@ Stryke: true dat about the nostalgia, but I still have fairly clear memories of January 2001. I certainly remember composing every email to invite each person to the forums back then... they were certainly some great times. I love HLP now, but it's... different. Still thinking about it. Ummm, yeah, as for those banning and editting powers... I'll keep that in mind for the next online gaming community I start, eh?

[phreak]

nostalgia?

HLP main forum will be 3 years old on monday
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,2781.0.html

[Grey Wolf]

I remember how I ended up here. Submitted news on Ross 128, and Thunder ended up posting it here instead of there. Think it was my first mission or something to that effect....

[Setekh]

Originally posted by PhReAk
nostalgia?

HLP main forum will be 3 years old on monday
http://www.hard-light.net/forums/index.php/topic,2781.0.html

"Main forum". Splitting has been the way we've grown. First it was Gen FS; then it was HL; then HL Art, then SCP broke off from FS modding, and is now bigger than Gen FS. It's pretty exciting.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by an0n
Which begs the question: Why?

Why would a being of infinite power give a **** about the right of a few measly little insects to choose what they do.

Because He created us, because He loves us, but perhaps most relevant for you, because He has the free will to choose to do so.

Originally posted by an0n
And I should also point out that on both microscopic and macroscopic scales, free-will contradicts all natural laws and more importantly, it drectly opposes the principle of cause and effect.

No, you're confusing free will with the ability to actually do anything you want. Free Will means that you are free to try to jump off a bridge and fly. Ability means that if you try such a stunt (which I in no way, shape, or form encourage...), you're gonna fall.

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
I'm still not quite sure how omniscience and free will are supposed to go together. If God knows everything that has been, is, and will be, how can we make a choice? And if we can make choices, doesn't that void the concept of an omniscient God?

I love this question in particular.

God is outside of Time. Imagine Him as a big bearded guy sitting somewhere, looking at this thing called "Time". It looks like a line. "Time" progresses along said line left to right:


---->--------->------A----->------B------->-----C------->---

He can see the beginning from the end. He can see us at a point (A) in "Time" that is, for us, before we make a choice. He can also look to the right a bit further and see us actually making that choice (B). A bit further to the right and He sees the consequences of that choice we freely made (C). He can choose to tell us at point A that certain events at point C will occur (aka a prophecy). This doesn't mean that He will force us to make a certain choice at point B in order to get to result C. He knows that we "already" (from His POV) made that choice, freely.

So from our POV, we have free will. And from God's POV, He can simply see that freely made decision we make, and act - at any point in time - on that knowledge.

Does that help any?

Originally posted by Gank
Just for posterity I'll give the line from Adam to Jesus:
Adam - seth - enos- cainin - mahalaleel - jared - enoch - methuselah - lamech - noah - shem - arphaxad - salah - heber - peleg - reu - serug - nahor - terah - abraham - isaac - jacob - judah - pharez - esrom - aram - aminadab - nashon - salmon - boaz - obed - jesse - soloman - rehoboam - abijah - asa - jehoshophat - jehoram - uzziah - jotham - ahaz - hezekiah - manasseh - amon - josiah - jeconiah - salatheil - zerubbabel - abuid - eliakim - azor - sadoc - achim - eluid - eleazar - matthan - jacob - joseph - Jesus

You forgot David, after Jesse and before Solomon.

And as for the KJV / translations / whatever discussion, I can read Biblical Hebrew, so if you have any questions about the source in the OT just ask me.

[an0n]

Uh, no.

If the question is "Why'd you hit that guy?", the answer is always "Because he called me a fag".

And "What did you do?" always prompts "Hit the guy".

I really don't understand why people have such trouble grasping the concept.

Everything you 'choose' is only 'chosen' because your past experiences dictate your response. The only way you could 'choose' something different would be if those past experiences were in a state of flux, but if they were, the universe would collapse.

[mikhael]

Sorry. I got the monarchs confused but not the editing.

[Liberator]

If that were the case an0n, a whole host of other atrocities would still go on.  People can choose to change, oftentimes all it takes is the offering of a different path, it's part of what makes us sentient.

[an0n]

My GOD! You just keep getting dumber and dumber.

Not just because you completely missed the point, but also because even within the confines of your child-like mind and simplistic argument, on a psychological and pratical level your comments are complete ****e.

Regardless of what your 9 year old cousin tells you, people don't change.

Everyone, without exception, is exactly the same at 30 years old as they were at 5 years old. Events in their life are inconsequential and they'll act according to whatever their 5 year old mind tells them.

But as I said, that's so not the point.

[vyper]

[q]Everyone, without exception, is exactly the same at 30 years old as they were at 5 years old. Events in their life are inconsequential and they'll act according to whatever their 5 year old mind tells them.[/q]

Thats almost as unbelievable as creationism.

People change every day as they learn and grow through new experiences in thier lives. Example - my friends are commenting these days how much I've changed from the end of high school.

I see changes in them, and in old girlfriends at uni. Everyone changes as they see events unfold in thier lives.

I admit that our choices are predetermined by our experiences, but those experiences do change our overall judegement along the way.

Fair enough, I will always be a romantic, I'll always be reactionary about certain matters, etc, but the way I go about dealing with those aspects of myself and the resulting events will changes as I gain more personal experiences in life.

No one is ever the exact same from one moment to the next, conciousness precludes it.