Originally posted by Ghostavo
And I quote from you know what... although it might not be exactly these words...
Yes, it says he completed the creation of the world in seven days. That means (within this mythology) that seven days after time began, he finished doing everything he decided to do within it.
But is is one thing to say that the
universe had a beginning, and another entirely to say that
God exists in time. If there is one thing that modern physics and Judeo-Christian religion agree on, it is that time starts when the universe is made, and that time is a property of this universe, and it alone. Time and space are things God created, therefore he himself is not contained by them.
It is hard for us to imagine what existence would be like in a timeless state, since we exist within time. The best way is to think of God living in an "eternal present," where all moments of time are simultaneously present to him at once. Technically, this way of imagining it is not true, but it is the closest our imaginations can get to the reality.
There is a problem with the cause and effect with any theory or belief system because first you would have to define time and a starting point.
Time begins with the creation of the universe. Call it the Big Bang or whatever. That is the moment when time starts to exist. There is no "before." There is only God in his timelessness.
If "god" doesn't have a beggining than you have a problem with the time. Because it raises questions such as "Why didn't god create the universe sooner?"
Well, there is no "sooner" because there is no time before the start of time. Like I said, we can't actually imagine what it would be like for time not to exist, but nevertheless it seems that time has a particular point when it starts, and there is no "before" before that.
Saying that god was there all along is as correct as saying that the universe was there all along. Unless you have proof you can't dismiss one of them without dismissing the other as that would be like saying that A is A but B is not B.
A God that had no beginning and a universe that had no beginning are both possible options. Go with the first, and you are a monotheist. Go with the second and you are a Hindu or Buddhist. But actually, one
can't have both.
Why? Because either the universe had a beginning, or it did not have a beginning.
Monotheism in all its forms (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam being the main ones) says this: you can go back through time, and back and back, until you reach a point where you can't go back any further--there is nowhere else to go. And at that point, if you look to see what is there, you see only one thing: God. There is nothing before him. He doesn't have a beginning--he
is the beginning. Time comes forth from him, he is not contained inside it.
Belief that the universe has existed forever says this: you can go back through time, and back and back and back, and you will never come to a point at which you have to stop. No matter how far back in time you go, you can always go further. Time doesn't come forth from anywhere--it is "just there" because the whole universe is "just there."
These options can't both be true. Picking which one you believe is an interesting business, but you can pick only one. The interesting bit is why someone ought to pick one over the other.
Everything in the universe was or is caused by something else,
But that is impossible. If
everything had to be caused by something else,
nothing would happen, because no one could get the ball rolling.
Or maybe you mean that once God got the ball rolling, everything else happens in one long chain of cause-and-effect? If that is what you mean, the answer is "Could be." But that is a pretty big claim to make without any backup. Simply insisting that it is true when I say it is false isn't making an argument--it is just insisting on something.
So, if that is what you mean--that God got things started, but everything since then has been just one long chain of cause-and-effect--why do you think so?
if that previous definition of free will is your own than there is no free will.
It is not my own. Boethius (c.480-c.525 AD) laid out a rigourous investigation of exactly what free will was, as did Augustine (IIRC), and various pagan Greek philosophers. The topic has been revisited by more recent philosophers, but no one has really advanced on Boethius' treatment of it.
To say that there is no free will is just the flip side of saying that everything is predetermined by one long chain of cause-and-effect. So my question again is, why do you think that?
Two quotes from me
Hm, maybe I misunderstood you earlier. When you asked me "What is the purpose of the brain in Christianity?" did you mean "Does Christianity involve thinking carefully?" or "How does Christianity understand the organ of the brain and its relation to the mind?" I thought you meant the first question, but perhaps you actually meant the second. Which is it? Because if you mean the second, then my answer wouldn't make much sense to you, and no wonder you quoted those two quotes back to me.
Even if free will exists than the part where they "betray" god is proof enough that they weren't perfect as previously though.
But no. They were supposed to be beings who could choose either way, and have a choice that was completely undetermined in any way beforehand. And that is what they were. If they were what they were supposed to be, then from God's perspective (the only one that really matters), they were perfect. Their imperfection starts only once they make that choice, in the same way that the universe starts only once God creates it. Go back before the point in time when they make that choice, and there is no more imperfection anymore. Their choice is the source of the imperfection, not an effect of it. The imperfection comes from them--it is not there beforehand.
P.S.
Yeah, this is fun... especially now I am talking about Nietzche in Philosophy classes. 
That guy was a genius!!
Kazan's assessment is correct. Of course, he and I would differ a bit on where Nietzche's problems lie.
I am glad you are enjoying this too.
Poll
