[ChronoReverse]

You are incorrect about Islam's interpretation of God. They interpret God as unitary, the Father AND the Holy Spirit. Jesus was merely a prophet. It is, admittedly, simpler than the Christian doctrine, but is not incompatible with it and does not render Allah and the Christian God incompatible or irreconcialable.

Unfortunately, a true prophet and not a false prophet, a prophet can never utter any false prophecy.  The standard for prophets is 100% accuracy.  Meaning anything they say is true; if it's found to be false, even if anything else they've said before was true, they'd be labeled a false prophet.

Jesus has claimed to be God both directly and indirectly ("I and my Father are one.").  Most notably, he's also used "I am" to refer to himself, something's that's quite literally blasphemy for anyone other than God to do.

If what Jesus said is true that means he can't be a prophet.  If what Jesus said was false, he's not a prophet anymore.


Incidentally, does anyone know the origin of the name Jesus?  I don't understand why they didn't just use Joshua.

[Liberator]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
I don't understand why they didn't just use Joshua.

Because God said his name was Jesus.

[ChronoReverse]

As for a synopsis.  I'll give a short one for the tLtWatW from memory


The Lion, the Witch, and the Wardrobe is, in its simplest, a story of four children, who stumble upon another World and their adventures.

It starts off in England, with a rather Ordinary beginning and some child-like fun and games in the large home of a old man.  Of course, that also includes games involving the imagination (as is more common with children back then; modern children don't use that talent very often), and they've invented adventures that they're going to have.  Alas it was poor weather and they had to stay inside.

However, while exploring the house, the youngest, a girl called Lucy (if I recall correctly) hid in a wardrobe, a large one full of fur coats.  Now this wasn't a bad place to hide and she had the presence of mind to not fully shut the doors (as any wise person would know to do) and the story wouldn't have turned out to be anything if that wardrobe was made from an Ordinary tree.  As it turns out, the wardrobe was not made from an Ordinary tree and as Lucy moves further back into the wardrobe, the story really begins.




Damn, now I have to hunt down my box set of the books and read them again.

My favorites were (in no particular order):
The Lion, The Witch and The Wardrobe
The Magician's Nephew
The Voyage of the Dawn Treader

[ChronoReverse]

Originally posted by Liberator


Because God said his name was Jesus.

Yes and that's actually Joshua.  As in "God Saves".  Exactly in the manner of the same dude who took down Jericho.

[mikhael]

Blimey. Talk about a return from the dead. This IS an ancient thread.

And I never did get back to Sesq, and probably won't now, either. *heh*

[Rictor]

oh look, the prodigal son returns.

[Liberator]

Welcome back mik!!!  You've been missed.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by ChronoReverse
Incidentally, does anyone know the origin of the name Jesus?  I don't understand why they didn't just use Joshua.

Originally posted by ChronoReverse


Yes and that's actually Joshua.  As in "God Saves".  Exactly in the manner of the same dude who took down Jericho.

Actually, no, it isn't. The transliteration of the Hebrew characters into English would be Joshua = Yehoshua, and Jesus = Yeshua. Yehoshua means "God Saves", correct. Yeshua, OTOH, means "Salvation". Similar, but there's a definite difference there.

[ChronoReverse]

Ah, thanks for the clear up.  I've been wondering about that one for quite a while.

[aldo_14]

Bloody 'ell, it's Mikhael

(see, that's a rhyme.  I'm clever like that, I is)

[Janos]

Originally posted by Ace


...and remember, Christmas is not a Christian holiday! It's an evil pagan holiday adopted by the distant from God un-Christian Catholics!

GOD BLESS WAL-MART and MERKIA!

(Note: The above Calvinist views are not held by the poster, but are held by six million Americans)

You know that's true, right?

[Liberator]

Oh stop it!

It's true, centuries ago, the early church adopted the holiday to make transitionto Christianity easier,  but it's a Christian holiday now no matter how you slice the fruitcake.

[Janos]

Originally posted by Liberator
Oh stop it!

It's true, centuries ago, the early church adopted the holiday to make transitionto Christianity easier,  but it's a Christian holiday now no matter how you slice the fruitcake.

Yes, I did not deny that. But it was - and quite recently, mind you - a pagan fest, and still  has strong paganic influences and symbolism attached to it, at least in Northern Europe.

BTW, some idiot on another forum said that Christmas has ALWAYS been a Christian holiday. "Christmas... christ mass..."
That was THE most anglocentric thing, ever.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Janos
BTW, some idiot on another forum said that Christmas has ALWAYS been a Christian holiday. "Christmas... christ mass..."
That was THE most anglocentric thing, ever.

Er... Christmas has always been a Christian holiday.  It's just some ways of celebrating Christmas that are non-Christian in origin.

[redmenace]

No christians assymulated a pagan holiday. The holiday of Chistmas has always been a christian holiday. But has some origins and influences in pagan traditions:

Source http://de.essortment.com/christmaspagan_rece.htm
Few people realize that the origins of a form of Christmas was pagan & celebrated in Europe long before anyone there had heard of Jesus Christ.
No one knows what day Jesus Christ was born on [it is guessed to be April 17 by scholars]. From the biblical description, most historians believe that his birth probably occurred in September, approximately six months after Passover. One thing they agree on is that it is very unlikely that Jesus was born in December, since the bible records shepherds tending their sheep in the fields on that night. This is quite unlikely to have happened during a cold Judean winter. So why do we celebrate Christ’s birthday as Christmas, on December the 25th?

The answer lies in the pagan origins of Christmas. In ancient Babylon, the feast of the Son of Isis (Goddess of Nature) was celebrated on December 25. Raucous partying, gluttonous eating and drinking, and gift-giving were traditions of this feast.

In Rome, the Winter Solstice was celebrated many years before the birth of Christ. The Romans called their winter holiday Saturnalia, honoring Saturn, the God of Agriculture. In January, they observed the Kalends of January, which represented the triumph of life over death. This whole season was called Dies Natalis Invicti Solis, the Birthday of the Unconquered Sun. The festival season was marked by much merrymaking. It is in ancient Rome that the tradition of the Mummers was born. The Mummers were groups of costumed singers and dancers who traveled from house to house entertaining their neighbors. From this, the Christmas tradition of caroling was born.

In northern Europe, many other traditions that we now consider part of Christian worship were begun long before the participants had ever heard of Christ. The pagans of northern Europe celebrated the their own winter solstice, known as Yule. Yule was symbolic of the pagan Sun God, Mithras, being born, and was observed on the shortest day of the year. As the Sun God grew and matured, the days became longer and warmer. It was customary to light a candle to encourage Mithras, and the sun, to reappear next year.

Huge Yule logs were burned in honor of the sun. The word Yule itself means “wheel,” the wheel being a pagan symbol for the sun. Mistletoe was considered a sacred plant, and the custom of kissing under the mistletoe began as a fertility ritual. Hollyberries were thought to be a food of the gods.

The tree is the one symbol that unites almost all the northern European winter solstices. Live evergreen trees were often brought into homes during the harsh winters as a reminder to inhabitants that soon their crops would grow again. Evergreen boughs were sometimes carried as totems of good luck and were often present at weddings, representing fertility. The Druids used the tree as a religious symbol, holding their sacred ceremonies while surrounding and worshipping huge trees.

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity. The new religion went down a bit easier, knowing that their feasts would not be taken away from them.

Christmas (Christ-Mass) as we know it today, most historians agree, began in Germany, though Catholics and Lutherans still disagree about which church celebrated it first. The earliest record of an evergreen being decorated in a Christian celebration was in 1521 in the Alsace region of Germany. A prominent Lutheran minister of the day cried blasphemy: “Better that they should look to the true tree of life, Christ.”

The controversy continues even today in some fundamentalist sects.

[Gank]

The holiday of Chistmas has always been a christian holiday. But has some origins and influences in pagan traditions

Umm, the article you posted says the exact opposite:

In 350, Pope Julius I declared that Christ’s birth would be celebrated on December 25. There is little doubt that he was trying to make it as painless as possible for pagan Romans (who remained a majority at that time) to convert to Christianity.

Its not a christian holiday, simply a renaming of a roman one. It has nothing whatsoever to do with christ. The whole thing about giving gifts and feasting is a direct port from the roman festival, they just renamed it to get converts.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saturnalia
even santas hohoho comes from roman origins.

[redmenace]

The declaration of "chistmas" as in name only was a christian holiday. The day of DEC 25 was a long standing pagan holiday. All of the tradition came from pagan religions. So it is christian in name only. But in reality a culmination of other religous practices brought together as a tool of assymulation.

[Janos]

It's now a Christian holiday, which was once built up on another holidays (yule, Saturnalia and their qwazillion variants, all which were more or less the same "let's hope the sun will rise because it's dark now like in DOOM3 lol"). After transitional time - which varied from decades to even millenia - the old symbols and Christian tradition were mixed, and now what we know as Christmas is a Christian holiday sometimes filled with age-old symbols we don't often even recognize.

So yeah, today's Christmas is a Christian holiday with roots deep in older holidays. All fests, holidays and important days are culture dependant - they change over time.

[aldo_14]

Incidentally, Cromwell & Puritans abolished the Christmas holiday in Britain in the 18th century; even after the restoration of the monarchy, the practice of celebrating it was dying out until the release of A Christmas Carol by Dickens.

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Gank
The whole thing about giving gifts and feasting is a direct port from the roman festival, they just renamed it to get converts.

Giving gifts was widespread already as a matter of hospitality.  And you'd be hard-pressed to find a holiday without feasting.  You can hardly claim either of those as uniquely Christian, pagan, or anything else.

even santas hohoho comes from roman origins.

And many Christians are also upset that Christmas is more about Santa nowadays than Jesus.