[StratComm]

Because IIRC there are references to a Terran 12th fleet and a Vasudan 12th Battlegroup.  Could be wrong about that but I think it's mentioned in the briefings.

[Nuclear1]

I would be guessing that the term "Fleet" refers to a combined Terran-Vasudan group, while "Battlegroup" refers to a small division of the Fleet assigned to a specific task. For example, the 13th Vasudan Battle Group may have been part of the 3rd Fleet, and the Aquitaine was being sent to the Battle Group to reinforce the initial wave.

And I would guess now all Fleets are referred to without "Terran" or "Vasudan" in front of the others (3rd Fleet, 4th Fleet), and the names are reserved for the battlegroups (13th Vasudan, 21st Terran).

And here's the listing for all capital ships killed in FS2 (check my post).

[.::Tin Can::.]

Originally posted by Unknown Target
And Tin Can gets the award for the DUMBEST argument ever made...according to him, the Shivans were super weak and could've EASILY gotten their ass whupped by the GTVA

I'd expect something idiotic and childish like that to be said from someone like you.

I didn't say they were super-weak, I just said they didn't get very far. Major Shivan battles/offensives took place in the Nebula, Gamma Drax, and Capella. Thats as far as they got. Also, if you read the Shivan Manifesto, then you would learn a lot from what he has to say about the last levels few levels of Freespace 2.

IIRC, the Carthage was not destroyed (hence, the battle in which our first view of the Astaroth is presented, and they compliment you on your gallient defence) Secondly, I didn't say "NTF Destroyers Killed by GTVA". You guys put too many words in my mouth on too many occasions. I said GTVA Destroyers lost to the hands of the Shivans who only made it to Capella.

Now, learn to read what I have to say and validly translate it.

[Knight Templar]

The Phoenicia died.
The two Meson Destroyers died.
The Colossus died.
All the ships within the blockades died. (presumeably. It's also presumeable that at least a few destroyers would have been here)

As for per fleet counts, 30 - 60 seems reasonable to me.

[WMCoolmon]

Some ships may have been cleaning up remaining NTF rebel activity and policing systems for pirate activity. Others may have developed simple malfunctions. Others may have been in drydock, or were on leave when fighting started. The last is most unlikely, though.

[.::Tin Can::.]

The Phonecia shouldn't be considered an option because it can die, and it also can live. So, using it as an example would just put up more controversy. As for the two Meson Destroyers, they were intentionally destroyed by the Alliance. They were "stripped down" and "were not much use to the Alliance". So, they sent them off as the first candidates for Subspace Explosion. As for the rest, I know the Collosus died because that was tragic. As for the Psamtik, that is about the only other destroyer I saw destroyed BY Shivan forces in action. If there were other occurances, I dont recall... I think I'll have to take a list of all the destroyers I saw taken out of action when I reinstall FS2 when my computer is, as I said, fixed...

[StratComm]

I think the Phoenicia option is still perfectly valid, because even if it lives you are still looking at a minimum of 7500 crew dead and a Destroyer effectively taken out of action for the remainder of the conflict.  We don't even know if the Phonecia (if it lived) could have limped back through Capella to secure space before the shivans nuked the place.  Also, there is the destroyer lost fighting the Ravana (it is mentioned in a briefing I believe) and you must also take into account the fact that the Shivans were not interested in taking out our ships after a point.  Remember, just because you didn't see the mission doesn't mean it didn't happen in the story arc, and for the most part fighters would only be scrambled from another destroyer if the one they were going to assist a) had no fighter compliment (the Bastion), b) no ability to launch fighters (Colossus), or c) no time to adequately prepare a defense (King's Gambit and Bearbaiting).  As all destroyers should have their own fighter screens, getting scrambled to assist a destroyer that isn't also your base is only going to happen so often.  To argue that the Shivans either didn't try to destroy GTVA capitals has no evidenciary basis whatsoever.

[.::Tin Can::.]

I said I would go through it again didn't I?

But the Phonecia I think CAN survive. It was a while until we got to the start of that 72 hour countdown. That means that at least a few days passed after that incident, because then we had the Psamtik destroyed, the SOC reconnisanse, and several other missions before finally they said "80+ shivan juggernaughts have gathered around the capella star". So, I say, we dismiss the Phonecia.

But like I said, I'll re-play the entire campaign for the 3rd time and write down my findings just for you, ok?

[Havock]

also: "lost" can be interpretated in different ways:

if you see it as "destroyed", the number is not as high as: "beaten up enough to be useless in the remainder of the conflict"

which is most likely the way how the phoenicia went:
it survived on my game, just jumped out with a BFred on "following it" when it entered subspace.

it's crippled, and would most likely:
A- made it home, and subsequently got scrapped or repaired, depending on the damage
B- be evacuated
C- Be destroyed anyway, sicne when it jump out of subspace, Alpha 1 is no longer around.

I say we use the: "taken out for the rest of the conflict" interpretation.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by nuclear1
I would be guessing that the term "Fleet" refers to a combined Terran-Vasudan group, while "Battlegroup" refers to a small division of the Fleet assigned to a specific task. For example, the 13th Vasudan Battle Group may have been part of the 3rd Fleet, and the Aquitaine was being sent to the Battle Group to reinforce the initial wave.

And I would guess now all Fleets are referred to without "Terran" or "Vasudan" in front of the others (3rd Fleet, 4th Fleet), and the names are reserved for the battlegroups (13th Vasudan, 21st Terran).

And here's the listing for all capital ships killed in FS2 (check my post).

I agree with this..... it's not 100% relevant, but I checked the dictionary meaning;

battle group
n.
- A U.S. army unit usually composed of five companies.
- A naval force composed of a variable number of warships, escorts, and supply vessels, depending on the nature of the mission.
- An improvised force, usually of battalion or brigade strength, drawn from different units for a particular operation.
- Chiefly British. A tactical force of battalion strength formed by attaching infantry and armored companies.

fleet
n.
- A number of warships operating together under one command.
- A group of vessels or vehicles, such as taxicabs or fishing boats, owned or operated as a unit.

[Zarax]

According to some FSURP research i made there were 26 fleets in GTVA, 13 for each race.
What you are not taking into account, is that NTF destroyers most likely does not add up to that number, but subtracts.
Also, you do not have to count the fleets when talking about NTF, because it's more likely that single ships defected instead of whole fleets.
That would also explain some things like NTF fleet composition...
So, taken into account 26 (let's say 30 for reserve purposes) fleets, each with one destroyer per fleet you have (numbers may vary) 30 - 10 = 20 GTVA destroyers at game start, 10 NTF ones plus the Colossus.
So, subtract GTVA vs NTF lost destroyers and you will obtain some figure that explains why the Shivans made so much damage even though not many destroyers were lost against them...

[Unknown Target]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.


I'd expect something idiotic and childish like that to be said from someone like you.

Someone like me, huh? At least I'm not some prick who comes into a community, rants and raves, and expects everyone to simply fall over his so-called intelligence. Shall we go back to our last thread, oh so young Tin Can? Apparantly we should, because, even though you may be 14, you're intelligence level suggests a two-month old cow, who can't seem to figure out that walking into the electric fence will always hurt it.

[Ghostavo]

Calm down... both of you.

Tin Can, you did understimate the Shivans in one of your previous posts. By saying that the Shivans barely got to Capella you're only showing you didn't pay attention to the storyline.

About the modified destroyer that carried the meson bombs, they were destroyers in either cases. An Orion is still a very valuable asset to the GTVA and takes a sizable portion of the existing fleet. They were meant to be "sacrifices" to save the GTVA!

Like Stratcomm said, Alpha 1 is not omnicient therefore, just because you don't see it ingame doesn't mean it didn't happen.

[.::Tin Can::.]

You cant substitute FOR the destroyer, because it stated that it required an "explosion of sizeable force" in order to demolish a node. Though yes, they could have been of use, they still stated they were scrapped down destroyers, whos parts were used in the creation of other ships. Although, I do feel sad that they destroyed my legacy from FS1 and used my home base in order to blow a node. Sad, sad, sad...

As for you, UT, you claim supperiority over everyone by critisizing the supposed newbie of the board in order to make yourself look more mature, and frankly no one is impressed. I didn't demand everyone "obey my will and my intelligence!". I just put up what I thought was right and then accepted answers that could be given by more considerate and mature people who would rather discuss instead of jump in and say "OMG YOUR STUPID!".

If anyone needs to be growing up, its you UT. I dont care if you get kicks off insulting everyone on internet forums, I just dont have time for your ****.

As for the storyline, I did read it. Can anyone list the Shivan's getting THROUGH our jump nodes, past Capella and into other systems? They got into Capella where we destroyed their first Sathanis, and then she just pushed through with 80 more as well as a good portion of their fleet. However they did not invade any more territory then that, and, when reading the Shivan Manifesto, I found out why.

As for the statistical count, again, I didn't ask for destroyers, sacraficed even, to be used in the count. Just destroyed by Shivans. Destroyed.

SIDE NOTE: Im not 14 anymore UT. Goes to show how little you pay attention and how much MORE you run your mouth.

[Ghostavo]

Very well then, I told you 3 and I believe there art more they destroyed either Alpha 1 wast watching or not, that I cannot sayeth as I haven't played the campaign in a loooooong time, I'm sure people here haveth or wilt point you to more destroyers, but be warned that the 3rd fleet dost haveth a limit on the number of it's destroyers.

The Shivans could haveth invaded the rest of allied space with ease, as to why they didn't do it, no one can be sure, only the writter of the plot. And even he may not haveth thought of it and just decided t'was more "epic" or "cool" to haveth them gather their "main fleet" (or is it? :devil: ) around Capella and supernovae it.

SIDE NOTE: You're not 14, you were a few weeks ago, congratulations on the aniversary and please try to restrain thy attitude towards other people, if they insult you either try to calm them down, or ignore them completely. A few insults art normal now and then, but try not to make it too frequent. This goes for all of us.

[neo_hermes]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Ghostavo

The Shivans could haveth invaded the rest of allied space with ease, as to why they didn't do it, no one can be sure, only the writter of the plot. And even he may not haveth thought of it and just decided t'was more "epic" or "cool" to haveth them gather their "main fleet" (or is it? :evil: ) around Capella and supernovae it.

i agree with you there ghostavo. the only person who can be sure of what's happening else where is the writers of the plot. and at his/her whim could have sent a nearly endless wave of shivan juggernauts to greet the GTVA at their home systems sun.

regarding the Pheonica, it could be a bug that lets it live/ it could be skill, even if one BFred hits her she's still going to be out of the fight. she could be dead from the supernova or trapped in Gamma Draconis. No one will ever know what happens to her only the writer's will. so you should all relax and eat somethin.

[Unknown Target]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of .::Tin Can::.

SIDE NOTE: Im not 14 anymore UT. Goes to show how little you pay attention and how much MORE you runnethyour mouth.

Congrats, does thou dost get thy first pubes as of the current time?

[.::Tin Can::.]

Im just going to ignore your childish comments herin, UT. So, keep them to yourself and thats one less problem we have to worry about. But to answer your question: no...

[Unknown Target]

Ah, then thou dost have the squeaky voice of d00m?

[Knight Templar]

Guess that means he is still bald.