[ionia23]

so much for gratitude.

[Gank]

Rictor pretty much said it Mikhael.

Main Entry: mer·ce·nary
Pronunciation: 'm&r-s&n-"er-E
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -nar·ies
Etymology: Middle English, from Latin mercenarius, irregular from merced-, merces wages -- more at MERCY
: one that serves merely for wages; especially : a soldier hired into foreign service     

Main Entry: mercenary
Function: adjective
1 : serving merely for pay or sordid advantage
2 : hired for service in the army of a foreign country

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Rictor
Yes, but this did not happen in America, this happened in Iraq. There are two major differences. Firstly, Iraq is a warzone. Secondly, these guys were not in their own country, defending against thieves. They were in a foregin nation, protecting the thieves. Even if you choose to disregard that last part, they were still in a foreign nation, which is currently a warzone. They were guarding the interests of US companies, war profiteers to be exact.

And I don't remember Rent-A-Cop security guards carrying automatics or wearing kevlar.

That really all depends on what you guard, doesn't it? Saudi rent-a-cops carry automatics and wear kevlar, and that certainly wasn't a warzone.

armed_guard != mercenary. You can try to dress it up all you want to fit your happy political agenda, but at the end of the day, you're rather incorrect. Ducks have feathers and eagles have feathers, but that doesn't make a duck a bird of prey, nor does it make an eagle water-fowl.

I'll agree they shouldn't have been there. The entire US war machine shouldn't have been there. Unfortunately, its a moot point: the invasion took place, and the troops and the civilian support people are there.

I don't know why I even try, some days. Its like talking to Liberator's left-spin twin.

[Gank]

Originally posted by mikhael
armed_guard != mercenary. You can try to dress it up all you want to fit your happy political agenda, but at the end of the day, you're rather incorrect. Ducks have feathers and eagles have feathers, but that doesn't make a duck a bird of prey, nor does it make an eagle water-fowl.

You're oversimplifing things quite a bit to fit your own agenda here Mikhael, these guys arent just that. They're hired guns working for a foriegn power which illegally invaded another country. You can call them whatever you want, but at the end of the day they're mercenarys working for the US government in a foreign country.

[Rictor]

Yeah, you say the whole war machine should no be there, but now that it is, so what. What I'm saying is that the Iraqis had every right to kill these guys, whether you want to call them mercs or secuirty contractors. They were as legitimate a target as any American soldier. People tried to condemn the act, while I don't think there is anything to condemn. The mutilation was a bit overboard, yes, but its nothing worse than what American bombs leave in their wake.

The fact is, if you go in to a place like Iraq, armed to the teeth, be prepared to die. Regardless of whether you are a US soldier, a mercenary, a security guard or a reporter. The most you can hope for it to align yourself with one side, reather than having both sides shooting at you because they don't know who the hell you are. The fact that these people who got killed were protecting the interests of US corporations, I think that rather obviously aligns them with the US side. And if I understand correctly, they were almost certainly ex-military men, who went into the private market. The only difference between them and any US soldier is what uniform they wear.l

And no, I'm not like Liberators evil Lefty twin. Well, so much as my opinion counts in the matter anyway. I don't spout bull****. Rather, I think you are predisposed to taking a pro-soldier position, regardless of your other beliefs, because you yourself served in the Army.

[Zarax]

Aside from either part motives, US invasion managed to double Iran size, just watch the army depart and Iraq annexed...
If anyone wanted to make a democracy there now is bringing a theocracy, and of the worst kind...
Oh, and take a look at Iraq borders, you'll find afghanistan near there...
Looks like there's an incoming Jihad, i just hope no one thinks about Seattle...
I would find rather pissing to have my first flight to US shot down by terrorist or USAAF

[ionia23]

Yup, they certainly had every right to kill these guys.  I'd prefer it if we had the right to kill every adult male over the age of 18 in the city and hang their bodies from streetlights as a warning to the next 10 generations "Don't dish out what you can't take, f*ckers".  

But it doesn't work that way.  Pity, really.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by ionia23
Yup, they certainly had every right to kill these guys.  I'd prefer it if we had the right to kill every adult male over the age of 18 in the city and hang their bodies from streetlights as a warning to the next 10 generations "Don't dish out what you can't take, f*ckers".  

But it doesn't work that way.  Pity, really.

Jeez, someone ban him already. I've got no problem with differing opinions, even flaming, but please don't be an asshole and advocate genocide against innocents.

Unless you'de like to go over there and personally carry out your little vengance against The Bad Men, shut your mouth.

[ionia23]

Mmm, silencing the opinions of those who disagree with you and are willing to be passionate about it.  Help yourself to another slice of Hypocrite Casserole there.

On a side note, the very people you're defending actually went through with genocides of their own.

Case closed.

[Gank]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Zarax
Aside from either part motives, US invasion managed to double Iran size, just watch the army depart and Iraq annexed...USAAF

US army aint going anywhere till the place is good and secure and friendly and all the oils gone.

[Gank]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of ionia23
Mmm, silencing the opinions of those who disagree with you and art willing to be passionate about it.

Case closed.

Help yourself to another slice of Hypocrite Casserole there.

[Rictor]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of ionia23
Mmm, silencing the opinions of those who disagree with you and art willing to be passionate about it.  Help yourself to another slice of Hypocrite Casserole there.

On a side note, the very people thou art defending actually went through with genocides of their own.

Case closed.

Oh God. Here's a little example.

You like the colour red. Fine. I colour the colour blue. Fine. You and I can talk all we want about who's colour is better, but then you go off an say "We ought to kill about 10,000 people who like the colour blue, to serve as a warning to the rest". Thats not disagreeing with me, thats showing your support for the murder of innoncent. And that is never right. The enemies crimes do not justify your own.

Now, not wanting to get off topic here, but you say that the people I am defending have commited attrocities of their own. Now, assuming that these are ex-Baathists (which they are mostly not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) who, pray tell, do you think has more blood on their hands: the Iraqi resistance or the United States? Saddam or America? Don't answer that, its a rhetorical question.

[Rictor]

From Blackwater USA, the company for which the murdered men were working.

This is on their website:http://www.blackwaterusa.com/images/bigbugeyes.gif
Very interesting picture.

Blackwater Training Center wast founded in 1996 to fulfill the anticipated demand for government outsourcing of firearms and related security training.

Our mission is to provide the client with veteran military, intelligence and law enforcement professionals with demonstrated field operations performance tempered with mature experience in both foreign and domestic requirements. We employ only the most highly motivated and professional operators, all drawn from various U.S. and international Special Operations Forces, Intelligence and Law Enforcement organizations

So, looks like they're mercs after all.

[Zarax]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Gank


US army aint going anywhere till the place is good and secure and friendly and all the oils gone.

What if China does the same thing with Siberia?
Tha would be WW3.

[Flipside]

The stupid bit is that, it's already been worked out that simply changing all the roof tiles on houses in the UK with solar panels would not only supply considerably more than future projected energy requirements, but would pay for itself in under 15 years.
The problem is that (1) everyone still thinks Solar Panels art glassy shiny things, (2) everyone seems to think Solar Power requires direct sunlight and (3) our Government is far too tight and short sighted to make the initial investment.

Damn pity really

[mikhael]

As seems to be the usual case with you and Liberator, Rictor, you've decided that I'm saying something other than what I did. At no point did I even complain about the killings themselves. Please, read what I write, not what you wish I wrote.

What I object too is not the killings (yeah, its a bad thing, but hey, they knew the job when they took it). I object to the mutilation of the corpses and the glee that was taken in it. I'd take issue with a US soldier or sailor if he were to mutilate a corpse similarly. Its not an issue with who killed who.

Btw, I was a sailor, not a soldier, thanks.

[ionia23]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of Rictor


Oh God. Here's a little example.

Thou like the colour red. Fine. I colour the colour blue. Fine. Thou and I can talk all we want about who's colour is better, but then you goest off an sayeth "We ought to kill about 10,000 people who like the colour blue, to serve as a warning to the rest". Thats not disagreeing with me, thats showing thy support for the murder of innoncent. And that is never right. The enemies crimes do not justify thy own.

Now, not wanting to get off topic here, but you sayeth that the people I am defending haveth commited attrocities of their own. Now, assuming that these art ex-Baathists (which they art mostly not, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt) who, pray tell, do you think has more blood on their hands: the Iraqi resistance or the United States? Saddam or America? Don't answer that, its a rhetorical question.

it's not a rhetorical question, it's an irrelevant one.  And the scenario is baloney.  "Oooh, you like Red Zinger Tea, but we like Chamomile tea".  Come on now.  You don't see people's bodies dragged through the streets for that.

What exactly do you think the people in the Sunni triangle are going to do when we leave, besides celebrate?  They're going to turn on anyone who thought maybe Saddam wasn't such a nice guy after all and maybe a little thank you to the allied forces for trying to clean up the mess.  Yeah.  Civil war.

Amazing.

[Rictor]

Rebuttal originating from the wisdom of mikhael
As seems to be the usual case with you and Liberator, Rictor, you've decided that I'm saying something other than what I did. At no point did I even complain about the killings themselves. Please, read what I write, not what you wish I wrote.

What I object too is not the killings (yeah, its a bad thing, but hey, they knew the job whenst they took it). I object to the mutilation of the corpses and the glee that wast taken in it. I'd take issue with a US soldier or sailor if he were to mutilate a corpse similarly. Its not an issue with who killed who.

Btw, I wast a sailor, not a soldier, thanks.

No, I was responding to the only part of your post I thought relevant.

You think mutilation after death is worse than simply death. I don't. Who cares if they took joy in mutilating them, that crime is such a tiny one compared to the act of killing itself. We simply have differing opinions on the issue, and since there are no facts to be presented, neither will change their mind. As a result, the "horribly brutality" part of the arguement became irrelevant, at least for me it did. So, no point in discussing it further.


And, BTW I was referring to you being in the "Army" meaning "all of the United States' military organizations" and not specifically the Army.

________________________________

Why do you think it is irrelevant who has more blood on their hands ionia? In order for you to take the moral highground, as it seems you are trying to do, you would have to be secure in the knowledge that "your side" has commited less attrocities than the other. That would be like a judge condemnding a man for murder, when the judge himself has murdered ten people.

As for what would happen when Americans left, I think that it would result in civil war, with a moderately theocratic government emerging. However, that is none of your concern. If the Iraqi people want a theocracy, that is their right. You are not to decide what is right for them and what isn't. No one gave you that authority.

[Grey Wolf]

The mercenary vs. rent-a-cop discussion is over? Too bad. I was going to ask why rent-a-cops would need training in sniping. Not defense against snipers, which is also offered, but sniping itself.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Grey Wolf 2009
The mercenary vs. rent-a-cop discussion is over? Too bad. I was going to ask why rent-a-cops would need training in sniping. Not defense against snipers, which is also offered, but sniping itself.

Covering the perimeter of a building / guard post from attackers, probably.