[Kazan]

bobboau: actually they do have exact numbers - i just don't know them off the top of my head

[Liberator]

What that, I hear an echo from a previous time...

"Ignorance is no excuse."

[neo_hermes]

i like bannana bread. it tastes soooo goood. do you like bannana bread?

[Setekh]

Originally posted by Kazan
Setekh just ENDORSED GENOCIDE

I'm glad you put that in capitals, because you know, that illustrates the point so much better.

Anyway, I understand why you're so against genocide. The human attempts at it throughout history have been, in a word, atrocious. However, we assume genocide is bad because of the assumption that there are innocents within the mass of people who are being destroyed. But what if there is not a single innocent person within a whole group of people, as I was pointing at before? You still haven't addressed this question.

[Black Wolf]

Originally posted by Setekh

Again, genocide? Well, we do believe in a justice system. Many Western justice systems (like the current Australian one, which I know well enough to talk about a little) will not inflict the death penalty as a throwback to the Christian foundation of death being a punishment that only God ought to inflict.

Hate to bring this up from way back on page 1, but we do't have the death penalty because it's barbaric and utterly final - you can release and (to a degree) compensate someone whom you wrongly imprison for murder for 50 years. You're royally mucked if you shot him for it.

[Kazan]

I cannot believe you Setekh, you utterly disgust me - you wholeheartedly support your invisible friend in the sky when he orders the killing of (already born mind you!) children, when he orders the killing of men, women, and children JUST because they''re not israelis

You would have been killed by your god - because you're not of israeli race.  You are a total and complete hypocrit, AND you're suppotring genocide.  You Disgust me - people like you existing in the fundamentalist movement is exactly why it's going to become a shooting war sooner or later

[pyro-manic]

Ionia23: Wake up - do some reading, and you'll see why the world hates the USA. Don't ignore your government's conduct just because you can't see the effects of it yet. They are acting on your behalf - you have responsibility for their actions. They are supposed to be a government "of the people, for the people", as in any democracy. In America, more than anywhere else, the government is becoming more and more removed from the needs of the public, in favour of making ridiculously wealthy people even wealthier.

Originally posted by Setekh:
Anyway, I understand why you're so against genocide. The human attempts at it throughout history have been, in a word, atrocious. However, we assume genocide is bad because of the assumption that there are innocents within the mass of people who are being destroyed. But what if there is not a single innocent person within a whole group of people, as I was pointing at before? You still haven't addressed this question.

Setekh: I'm very surprised to hear that from someone like you. By that logic, no person on the planet should be allowed to live - are you 100% "innocent"? I very much doubt it. I assume genocide is bad because I believe nobody has the right to take the life of another person (unless they themselves are in mortal danger from said person), not because there is the risk of an innocent person being killed.

Kazan: For ****'s sake. Calm down a bit, and stop going ape-****-crazy every time someone says something slightly removed from your viewpoint. I respect all and share many of your sentiments, but it reflects badly on you when you throw the teddy out of the pram every time you see something that you don't agree with 100%. Some people may read it as slightly hypocritical that you claim to be so liberal, yet you display some very bigoted views on certain things, particularly people with strong religious beliefs. I mean, you called Setekh a fundamentalist, I assume drawing comparisons between him and say, Liberator (no offence, Liberator - you're simply the best example we have of a right-wing Christian). That is simply a stupid and inaccurate comparison, as they so patently have very different sets of values and opinions.  I'm not condoning what he said, but I think it's something he posted without thinking it through properly, so I'll question it rather than condemning him for it without any further explanation. Just tone it down a bit, and be a bit more tolerant of other people's beliefs, OK?

[Kazan]

pyro-maniac: i go "ape-****-crazy" as you put it when people put forward completely irrational viewpoints and assert them as the "ONE TRUTH!" and try and force it on the world

IF someone disagrees with me and can honestly back up their position without appealing to some religious document or other stupid bull**** then they get treated like a rational human being.


"bigoted" requires that it be prejudice (pre-judgement) - if i behementy oppose something it's out of having analyzed it.

Religious beliefs are totally and completely irrational.  You should NEVER make decisions about factuality irrationally.  Religion is the enemy of free thinking, the enemy of progress.  Sure it served a purpose right until around 1600s when we started getting real science.  Now it's just the refuge of those who are brainwashed into it by their parents and are unable to effectively metacognate, and those who are but choose the emotionally appealing one over the honest one.

Setekh supports genocide based upon the bible! If that isn't an example of "inerrant and literal interpretation" of the bible then nothing else is!   Even amoung fundamentalists you get the hyper-extreme (liberator) and the moderately-extreme, and the less-extreme (setekh... though supporting ****ing genocide makes me want to put him right with libby)

He posted his support for genocide _TWICE_

[ionia23]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
Ionia23: Wake up - do some reading, and you'll see why the world hates the USA. Don't ignore your government's conduct just because you can't see the effects of it yet. They are acting on your behalf - you have responsibility for their actions. They are supposed to be a government "of the people, for the people", as in any democracy. In America, more than anywhere else, the government is becoming more and more removed from the needs of the public, in favour of making ridiculously wealthy people even wealthier.

Well, if you based world opinion on the United States based on what you read on salon.com and in Al-Jazeera, then I can see how you would come to that conclusion.

However, to use a blanket statement like "the whole world hates the USA", is, well, grossly exaggerated.

Thank you for the reading suggestion.

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by Kazan
pyro-maniac: i go "ape-****-crazy" as you put it when people put forward completely irrational viewpoints and assert them as the "ONE TRUTH!" and try and force it on the world

IF someone disagrees with me and can honestly back up their position without appealing to some religious document or other stupid bull**** then they get treated like a rational human being.

"bigoted" requires that it be prejudice (pre-judgement) - if i behementy oppose something it's out of having analyzed it.

Fair enough. I stand corrected.

Religious beliefs are totally and completely irrational.  You should NEVER make decisions about factuality irrationally.  Religion is the enemy of free thinking, the enemy of progress.  Sure it served a purpose right until around 1600s when we started getting real science.  Now it's just the refuge of those who are brainwashed into it by their parents and are unable to effectively metacognate, and those who are but choose the emotionally appealing one over the honest one.

I don't agree with that all the way. Yeah, a lot of religion is daft, and I deplore the way it's used to influence people, but it can also be a good thing. It can give people a focus for their lives, to better themselves or to help them through a bad time in their lives. I know someone whose faith was the only thing that held her together after a horrible car crash killed two people in her immediate family. Without it, she would probably have commited suicide. It gave her the means to get over the accident and get on with her life. And I can only see that as a good thing.

Setekh supports genocide based upon the bible! If that isn't an example of "inerrant and literal interpretation" of the bible then nothing else is!   Even amoung fundamentalists you get the hyper-extreme (liberator) and the moderately-extreme, and the less-extreme (setekh... though supporting ****ing genocide makes me want to put him right with libby)

I'm not sure about that. I assume the bit of the Bible referred to is the Sodom and Gomorrah episode, in which, as I understand it, God destroys the cities because the inhabitants have become corrupted beyond hope. People who commit crimes must face justice and pay the price for what they have done, and God decides that the price is death (a sentence only he can pass, as Setekh says). Because everyone in S & G is guilty, this means they all face the death penalty, hence the fire and brimstone and "genocide". That is the reason for it - the capital offences commited by a large number of people in the same place, not the destruction of the Jews/Christians/whatever on the whim of a madman. If a thousand people in, say, Texas, went out and shot someone tomorrow, were tried, convicted and sentenced to death by the State, would that be genocide?

I must say I'm dead against capital punishment (same reasons as Black Wolf above), but this is a scenario that could happen (though extremely unlikely). Regardless of whether you support the death penalty or not, would the Texas government then be guilty of crimes against humanity, given that they were simply dispensing justice on criminals?

He posted his support for genocide _TWICE_

True. This is why I questioned it in my previous post. I'm witholding judgement until he replies.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Kazan
pyro-maniac: i go "ape-****-crazy" as you put it when people put forward completely irrational viewpoints and assert them as the "ONE TRUTH!" and try and force it on the world

IF someone disagrees with me and can honestly back up their position without appealing to some religious document or other stupid bull**** then they get treated like a rational human being.


"bigoted" requires that it be prejudice (pre-judgement) - if i behementy oppose something it's out of having analyzed it.

Religious beliefs are totally and completely irrational.  You should NEVER make decisions about factuality irrationally.  Religion is the enemy of free thinking, the enemy of progress.  Sure it served a purpose right until around 1600s when we started getting real science.  Now it's just the refuge of those who are brainwashed into it by their parents and are unable to effectively metacognate, and those who are but choose the emotionally appealing one over the honest one.

Setekh supports genocide based upon the bible! If that isn't an example of "inerrant and literal interpretation" of the bible then nothing else is!   Even amoung fundamentalists you get the hyper-extreme (liberator) and the moderately-extreme, and the less-extreme (setekh... though supporting ****ing genocide makes me want to put him right with libby)

He posted his support for genocide _TWICE_

I thought Setekh was using the bible for historical reference, nothing more than that.  I back his position too.

Is slaughtering all of your enemies truly genocide, or merely thorough?

[Kazan]

Slaughtering and entire civiliation because they don't agree with your theology is genocide


Pyro: those positive effects of religion can be found without religion

[pyro-manic]

Originally posted by ionia23:Well, if you based world opinion on the United States based on what you read on salon.com and in Al-Jazeera, then I can see how you would come to that conclusion.

However, to use a blanket statement like "the whole world hates the USA", is, well, grossly exaggerated.

Thank you for the reading suggestion.

OK, it was a generalisation. Sorry.

As for reading, good on yer. I'd offer one bit of advice - try to read over the whole spectrum of politics - if you limit yourself to left- or right-wing writers, you'll get a horribly distorted picture.

[Kazan]

it's hard to tolerate some of hte right-wingers though... accusing people of being traitors for having a different opinion... for thinking that religion has no business in our government, etc

[pyro-manic]

Absolutely. There are some downright dangerous opinions flying about.

Originally posted by Kazan
Pyro: those positive effects of religion can be found without religion

True. It's not always that easy, though. By their nature, people don't want the whole truth. By the whole truth, I mean that we have no special purpose in this life other than to breed, that we are nothing more than over-evolved apes, that nothing we do matters in the grand scheme of things, and that we all die alone.

It's not nice. If you exposed people to that, I mean really showed them reality, stripped away all the protective layers that society and their individual beliefs and instincts give them, it'd destroy them. Same for me, same for you. The only thing that keeps anyone going above the animal instinct to reproduce is that they have a purpose, that they can achieve something with the time they have and that there is a goal to be reached at the end of it.  That, I think, is the great gift and the terrible curse of conciousness, and religion can be the means for people to deal with it.

And on that happy note, I think I'll stop.

[Kazan]

pryo-maniac: i know that truth

you are only as important as you make yourself - ie you are only important if you do some lasting good for the species.  

Religion is a very poor means of dealing, like almost every other coping mechanism.  They need to get some backbone, act like a mature human being and face reality

[Gank]

Originally posted by pyro-manic
I'm not sure about that. I assume the bit of the Bible referred to is the Sodom and Gomorrah episode, in which, as I understand it, God destroys the cities because the inhabitants have become corrupted beyond hope. People who commit crimes must face justice and pay the price for what they have done, and God decides that the price is death (a sentence only he can pass, as Setekh says).  

The old testaments one big long book of ethnic cleansing.

http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&passage=Numbers+21%3A1-3&version=NIV
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deuteronomy+2%3A26-36&x=12&y=14
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Numbers+21%3A32&x=11&y=9
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Deuteronomy+3%3A1-11&x=15&y=11
http://www.biblegateway.com/cgi-bin/bible?language=english&version=NIV&passage=Numbers+31%3A3-19&x=16&y=7

Also theres a whole lot of stuff in Joshua about massacaring the caanites. Bascically these people were evil so it was ok to kill them and take their land and possessions. Who says they're evil? The Israelites god. I used to be a christian till I actually read the bible, and realised the whole thing was just an excuse for murder and theft.

[Kazan]

Gank:

[Gank]

It'd be ok if poor little Israel wasnt trying to do the exact same thing today, with there right wing born again christian wankers egging them on with the hope of sending us all back to the stone age. The worlds ****ed.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Kazan
Religion is a very poor means of dealing, like almost every other coping mechanism.  They need to get some backbone, act like a mature human being and face reality

Is it though?  Religion, persay, spirituality can be a very effective pillar of strength for people.  Whether or not you agree with their principles, a full-blown spiritual fanatic has the strength of 10 who don't believe in anything.  Anyone catch the "Dune" reference here?

Religion in itself is neither good nor evil, it's the application that makes the determination.

You can look upon the tales of the Bible as "The Word", or you can look upon it a a history of the Jews and the Christians intermingled with some pretty good guides to live by.  

Mind you, I'm just talking about the bible here, not every spirtiual text ever written...