[kasperl]

Originally posted by Stealth


i swear you've got to be the biggest dumass i know.

yeah, that's what it is.  the american soldiers went to the nearby costume store, bought costumes, dressed up in them, took pictures of each other prending to be torturing and abusing the people in costumes, then somehow these pictures leaked to the press.

yeah kasperl, it's a hoax, it's one big hoax designed by the american soliders to get each other in trouble

no, i mean that anyone, not nessicarely connected in any way to the military, could've made these pictures.

But, after reading on some other site that some Tommy's gave these to the Daily Horror, it invalidates my statement.

[Kazan]

Rictor: you like trying to take the misbehavior of individuals and say we're all like that, you see some small error by an individual and you're like ALL AMERICANS ARE LIKE THAT! DON'T DENY IT

that's bigotry - go **** yourself

[Bobboau]

yeah, you know by rictors reasoning, we should level entier cities becase one or two people in them are shooting at us.

[Rictor]

Huh? Point out where I said all Americans. What I meant was American soldiers. Though of course I don't believe that all the soldiers are like this, I think its more than just these few. But it never gets reported. The guys (CBS I think) had this story and sat on it for a month. Maybe they would have never released it if it hadn't leaked out on its own.

[Flipside]

This happens everywhere and all the time. It's not particular to any race, religion or war.

Just like the Police, some people become soldiers because they are petty minded little classroom bullies who are too cowardly to do it without some kind of 'higher authority'. Yes, the 'Few bad apples' line sounds old hat, it has been used a lot of times, because in most cases it is true.

I think it is disgusting the way these prisoners have been treated, and I hope the soldiers themselves are publicly stipped of duties, made to apologise and sent home in disgrace, while the locals watch, that is important.

It's just people being people, don't for one moment think any conquering army has behaved any better, and a great many have behaved worse.

[Liberator]

While I won't pretend that there are bastards in the Military, your attitude that they are all bastards because of a few sickos is ludicrous.  

That's like me claiming all Canadians are a bunch of weak-kneed appeasers who'll be on what ever side of an issue will make the fewest people mad at us because of a few random comments I've seen from various sources.

[Rictor]

True, but there are important differences.


There are 35 millions Canadians and maybe 250,000 US soldiers. The likelyhood of uniform behaviour increases as the number of specimens decreases. And two, all soldiers go through the same basic training. They are all tought by the same authority and by the same rules, what is acceptable in the Army and what is not. In their duties as soldiers, their "upbringing" has been uniform. The same can not be said for any nation, outside of maybe a few staunchly Communist states.

And I am not saying that this hasn't been done by almost every conquering army in the history of mankind. But what was acceptable 1500 years ago is, I hope, no longer acceptable today. That, and also the US government spouts off of rhetoric proclaiming they are more moral, more just etc etc, so this is also a factor.

I for one would like all prisons under military supervision to be thouroughly inspected to confirm that such behaviour isn't widespread. This includes Guantanamo Bay, as they are reported to be among the worst violators of human rights.

[Flipside]

I don't believe that war has changed, or the hormones and feelings of superiority that victory can create have changed. Only the tools we use to make war have really changed.

It was unacceptable 1500 years ago if you truly followed the preachings of the church at the time, it would be considered a sin, but, of course, there were no TV cameras 1500 years ago either. And no-one dared talk, you had no Newspapers, unions etc then.

I'm not saying this to defend their actions, all I'm saying is that Humans havent changed that much in the last few millenium, they have understood more, true, but we still react to stimuli pretty much the same way.

[mikhael]

Originally posted by Liberator
While I won't pretend that there are bastards in the Military, your attitude that they are all bastards because of a few sickos is ludicrous.  

That's like me claiming all Canadians are a bunch of weak-kneed appeasers who'll be on what ever side of an issue will make the fewest people mad at us because of a few random comments I've seen from various sources.

My eyes bleed every time I am forced to agree with you, Lib.

Can I get a coupla pints of O-neg?

[Rictor]

See, I'm doing some good after all. Creating new friendships every day, where previously there were only enemies. Like Dubya you could say....

[karajorma]

Send them into Fallujah bound and gagged as part of the peace settlement. End of problem

[Gank]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20040502/wl_mideast_afp/us_iraq_prisoners&cid=1514&ncid=1473
The plot sickens

http://newyorker.com/fact/content/?040510fa_fact

[mikhael]

Jesus. Things like that make me wish I was in the military, where I'd be able to see these reports myself, straight from the horse's mouth, as it were.

That's... disturbing to say the least.

[Gank]

The new yorker article is very very interesting, how reliable of a mag is it? political leanings etc?

[mikhael]

I'd say the New Yorker carries a bit of a leftist bias. Not, mind you, that that matters much in this case. The quotes form the leaked military report are pretty damning. Even if they're quoting only the worst of the worst, and leaving out all the flowers and poetry heaped upon the jailors by the inmates, those few incidents are sickeningly ****ed up.

[Gank]

http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/2004_03_01_riverbendblog_archive.html

[Rictor]

a daily journal kept by one of the interrogators at Abu Gharaib, very intersting.

http://216.239.41.104/search?q=cache:XYYOCOWnu_8J:www.am1500.com/personalities/joeryan.htm+KSTP+%22Joe+Ryan%22&hl=en

[Bobboau]

what's so interesting about it, I didn't see anything incriminateing, though I didn't read all of it, mostly sounds like the story you'd hear from Fox.
care to give the interesting excerpts

[ionia23]

I"ve never served in combat, though a few around here have.  I've tried to put it into perspective.  Oh sure, these folks knew what they were signing up for (ho ho ho), but they're thousands of miles away from home in a strange foreign land fighting for people who don't even want them there in the first place.  They're caught up in this wierd humanitarian/war thing where they are expected to shell one town and hand out food in the other.

See,the other side can screwup all they want, but if the coalition troops make one tiny stinkin' error in judgement it's "oooh evil American white devils" blah blah.  Ludicrous.  You don't hear a soul talking about what they did to Jessica Lynch.  Or the hostages.

This was the action of a few individuals taking out their frustrations.  Do I think it's reflective of the entire coalition force? Aww, hell no.  Do I think they should be shot?  Naw.  Regardless of circumstances, they know what behavior is expected of them.  Dishonoable discharge and some prison time is more than sufficient, followed up by apologies from their superiors.

I feel no sympathy for the inmates whatsoever.  When you sign up for the wrong team, you get what you deserve.  However, what our troops did was deplorable, but nothing compared to what the enemy does with impunity.

I find it most interesting that it seems the Geneva Convention applies to America and no one else.

[Bobboau]

Jessica Lynch, didn't you know that was all staged propaganda evil americans white devil white devil?