[Rictor]

Yeah, and one of the guys who first broke the Abu Ghraib story.

[Gank]

http://www.theage.com.au/articles/2004/05/07/1083911403437.html

[Rictor]

This is gold :D

http://dailytelegraph.news.com.au/story.jsp?sectionid=1258&storyid=1302907

[Flipside]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=564&e=3&u=/nm/20040510/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_dc_38

Just keeps getting worse and worse really, somehow better and better doesn't seem appropriate

[Bobboau]

there is a diference between "keeping Iraqi prisoners naked for days in darkness" and forceing them to make a human pyramid, and wera a dog leash

[Flipside]

"Upon witnessing such cases, the ICRC interrupted its visits and requested an explanation from the authorities. The military intelligence officer in charge of the interrogation explained that this practice was 'part of the process'."


"It said it met prisoners who were being held naked in complete darkness. Others had been held naked and were allowed to dress, but given only women's underwear. "

It happens in small steps, if you can do this to a prisoner, then surely you can do that to a prisoner

[Rictor]

sure, there's a difference, but neither is acceptable. Don't pull a Limbaugh and try to make this out to be some sort of prank, just blowing off some steam, all it good fun etc. It was clearly torture, though of course there were greater and lesser degrees. But even the mildest accusations coming to light violate a whole whack of POW rights.

[Bobboau]

my policy is they should be treated the same was our military would handel one of our troops. I have no doubt that if one of our guys ****ed something up he'd be in a dark room naked.

[Rictor]

Except, well, the Taguba reported clearly stated that somewhere around 60% of the detainees were innocent of any crime and where of no threat to the US.

With all due respect, this is not about what you deem to be acceptable, for your own troops or anyone else. The fact is, there are long standing international laws regarding the treatment of POWs. Its not up to the troops, or even the commanders to make it up on the spot.

Also, you do realize that your situation is hypothetical only, right? US troops get more or less carte blanche. Even the most serious of crimes are excused by the Army, or given minimal reprimand. Now, assuming that someone ****s up bad enough to deserve serious punishment, and that the Army is powerless to protect him/her in the face of astounding evidence, they wouldn't be tortured. At worst, they spend the rest of their lives looking at the inside of a miliotary brig, but no way would any soldier ever treat his own the same way as an Iraqi prisoner.

[mikhael]

Bob, we don't do that to our own. The regs lay out how you can hold and treat prisoners.

[Gank]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1970312.stm

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Gank
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1970312.stm

"You remember Operation Rolling Thunder?"

"Yeah. I think I do, yeah."

"September 1966. . . . You were piloting an F-105 Fighterchief. . . . 355th Tactical Fighter Wing out of Thailand. . . . "

"It was a military target,"

"It was a civilian target. . . . There were 11 civilian casualties."

"Why did you tell me that?"

"Because you could be charged and tried for a war crime. . . All wars are crimes."

- NBC "The West Wing: War Crimes"

[Turambar]

what this generation needs is hippies.  Whos with me!!

[ionia23]

And, while we're on the subject:

[Rictor]

I am! Though the first person who tries any of that vegan **** with me gets a black eye. I'm a carnivore damnit!

Gank: hey, whats new? There's one country that considers itself above international law, and I think we all know which one.

Lets see...Rights of the Child, ICC, Kyoto, nuclear non-proliferation...I'm forgeting something I think. Maybe the Landmines thing, but I might be mistaken.

ionia: the Arab world? Excuse me? What, you mean like the Gook world, or the Black world? Or perhaps its those damn upity Injuns at it again. How about the Christian world, or the Aryan world.

just shut up, yeah?


___________

Judge Richard Goldstone, the first chief prosecutor at The Hague war crimes tribunal on the former Yugoslavia, echoed these sentiments saying:

"I think it is a very backwards step. It is unprecedented which I think to an extent smacks of pettiness in the sense that it is not going to affect in any way the establishment of the international criminal court".

[Gank]

Originally posted by ionia23
- NBC "The West Wing: War Crimes"

Thats tv, we're talking about the REAL world.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Gank


Thats tv, we're talking about the REAL world.

So am I.  All wars are crimes.  All.  You, of all people here, should know that.

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
ionia: the Arab world? Excuse me? What, you mean like the Gook world, or the Black world? Or perhaps its those damn upity Injuns at it again. How about the Christian world, or the Aryan world.

just shut up, yeah?

Don't blame me, i didn't write the cartoon.  If you find it racist, take it up with Farrington.

[mikhael]

Funny how its okay to stereotype Americans, but not okay to stereo type Iraqis. Hilarious that.

Really. I'm slapping my knee.

[Flipside]

I think the problem is that it is an ever-decreasing circle. The more America does to protect itself from the growing distrust, the more distrust they generate

As far as I can tell, it was only a few people involved in this torture, not all American troops, those who disagree with Americas policies, in any country, will obviously point at this and say 'This is America'. But it's not, America is built on a lot of good ideas and principles, even if the establishment tries to screw with it wherever possible. I believe most people in Europe would know exactly how irritated and powerless the average 'man in the street' really is. It concerns me greatly that in some cases the torture may have been 'policy', whether misinterpreted or not. This has been going on in war, and far far worse, for centuries. The Spanish Inquisition were famous for making people swallow knotted rags and then puling their bowels and intestines out with them. I don't condone what those people did, but it doesn't take a King or President or Dictator to be an evil sadistic bastard. The man next door can do it just as well.

My own feelings are that America were wrong to do what they did, but I won't hate American's for being a part of a wrong decision. If I did, then surely I am just reciprocating the whole 'them and us' thing and making matters worse?