[Rictor]

How so? America is a single country, under a single government. The "Arab World" is made up of more than a dozen nations, with widely varying political and religious agendas.

And anyhow, when have Americans been sterotyped? Learn to differentiate between soldiers and citizens. As I've pointed out before, US troops in Iraq all have the same training. In their capacity as soldiers, they have all had a uniform upbringing.

Do you see a difference between implying 100,000 soldiers act the same, and implying that hundreds of millions of people from entirely different national and ethnic backgrounds act the same?

[Jetmech Jr.]

Originally posted by Flipside
I think the problem is that it is an ever-decreasing circle. The more America does to protect itself from the growing distrust, the more distrust they generate

As far as I can tell, it was only a few people involved in this torture, not all American troops, those who disagree with Americas policies, in any country, will obviously point at this and say 'This is America'. But it's not, America is built on a lot of good ideas and principles, even if the establishment tries to screw with it wherever possible. I believe most people in Europe would know exactly how irritated and powerless the average 'man in the street' really is. It concerns me greatly that in some cases the torture may have been 'policy', whether misinterpreted or not. This has been going on in war, and far far worse, for centuries. The Spanish Inquisition were famous for making people swallow knotted rags and then puling their bowels and intestines out with them. I don't condone what those people did, but it doesn't take a King or President or Dictator to be an evil sadistic bastard. The man next door can do it just as well.

My own feelings are that America were wrong to do what they did, but I won't hate American's for being a part of a wrong decision. If I did, then surely I am just reciprocating the whole 'them and us' thing and making matters worse?

IMO, that has gotta be the smartest thing ive seen said in this whole thread.

[jdjtcagle]

Originally posted by Flipside
I think the problem is that it is an ever-decreasing circle. The more America does to protect itself from the growing distrust, the more distrust they generate

As far as I can tell, it was only a few people involved in this torture, not all American troops, those who disagree with Americas policies, in any country, will obviously point at this and say 'This is America'. But it's not, America is built on a lot of good ideas and principles, even if the establishment tries to screw with it wherever possible. I believe most people in Europe would know exactly how irritated and powerless the average 'man in the street' really is. It concerns me greatly that in some cases the torture may have been 'policy', whether misinterpreted or not. This has been going on in war, and far far worse, for centuries. The Spanish Inquisition were famous for making people swallow knotted rags and then puling their bowels and intestines out with them. I don't condone what those people did, but it doesn't take a King or President or Dictator to be an evil sadistic bastard. The man next door can do it just as well.

My own feelings are that America were wrong to do what they did, but I won't hate American's for being a part of a wrong decision. If I did, then surely I am just reciprocating the whole 'them and us' thing and making matters worse?

Well said

[Rictor]

Flipside: I am hesitant to think that this is an isolated incident. Am I supposed to believe that the only times that people are tortured is when it gets reported? Thats just silly. Look at all the evidence coming it light, and thats just those cases where there is physical evidence. The Army as an institution (American as well as most any other) is well rooted in brutality. I can't give any army the benefit of the doubt when there is a long history of brutal behaviour. For every one action that is reported, a thousand others are not.

not to mention that aside from any torture or "inappropriate behaviour", there is the entirely acceptable and intended role of a soldier as a killer. Sure, he didn't torture anyone, but he still fragged 15 Iraqis, some of suspect legitimacy.


this might be an interesting read. Its not nearly so wordy as the guy's previous artcle (remember I posted it a while ago...).

click click

[Flipside]

I understand what you are saying Rictor, I have witnessed a hell of a lot of confusion during this War, the American troops are largely inexperienced, not sure what to expect, have never dealt with suicide or terrorist tactics anymore. They've had 'Muslim Fundamentalists' rammed down their throat because their leaders have to insert the word 'Muslim' to prevent problems when they get home.

As far as your average GI knows, every single local is a fundamentalist. A GI is not trained for diplomatic missions. They are not a Policing Force, they are an Army, they invade places. No offence to any Americans here, but it didn't work in Vietnam, and it won't work in Iraq, your army is set up to kick ass, not kiss it

I can't justify what has happened there, please don't think that I do, least of all the torture. I'm suggesting the possibility this isn't happening because they are American, this isn't happening because America is the most powerful nation on the planet. This is happening because they are human, and as much as we love to think otherwise, humans do things like this if they think they can get away with it.

[mikhael]

Nah. Don't bother to argue with Rictor. He's right. Just ask him.

[Rictor]

This is just getting ridiculous. I could hound you and many others here with the same baseless crap as you're doing. How about you actually read, and then, instead of this, make comments that *gasp*, pertain to what is being discussed.

oh and, the Red Cross has reason to believe that 70%-90% of the prisoners are  innocents, which goes even beyond the Taguba 60%. Real comforting to know, eh?

http://news.ft.com/servlet/ContentServer?pagename=FT.com/StoryFT/FullStory&c=StoryFT&cid=1083180400050&p=1012571727172

[ionia23]

Originally posted by mikhael
Nah. Don't bother to argue with Rictor. He's right. Just ask him.

[Flipside]

This is the whole problem Rictor, we will never ever know the whole truth, we will never ever know. Some people will say it was ordered, others will say it was a select few, but I have to live with the fact that no matter what 'truth' I get, it is tainted by the opinion of the observer.

Yet again, I am not condoning this, or the shootings, I wonder how many Russian or Polish soldiers shot Germans near the end of the war simply because they were German? Yes, your source quotes his own opinion, it may be technically more detailed than mine, but that doesn't make him right, that just means he has an opinion, just as yours OR MY opinions are not baseless simply because we do not agree.

As for comments that are pertaining to the subject, I believe the subject of the thread was the Red Cross releasing pictures of American Soldiers torturing prisoners. Any other details so far have been in the form of accusation, assumption and third party interviews. I don't think we will EVER learn the truth, but how is that different from any other government in existence?

If we allow ouselves to be drawn into this cycle of distrust and hatred through association, then we are helping to accelerate a division made by a few men, which could be catastrophic to billions, and I don't mean the torture, and also playing along to precisely what both sides want.

Neither side in this 'War' is actually big enough to hurt the others, it's fundamentalists vs fundamentalists, the crime is the ordinary people that both sides use as fodder to fight their fights for them. The American Establishments are greedy, self centred bastards, I don't doubt that for one moment, but from the American People I have heard nothing but Shock, shame and guilt.

If we are to have a judgement on 250 million people, I won't do it because of the actions of less than a hundred of them, or the orders of less than 10. And yes I am concerned that this may have been American policy, but I can garauntee it was the policy of less people than you have fingers, and Soldiers are not chosen for the ability to think through the moral outcome of situations

There MUST be a reckoning for those who are guilty of this crime, they should be punished, this much is obvious, but to carry the hatred on for all of them makes us no less small minded than those who created the situation.

[Rictor]

But, wait, I think the world has these guys judged all wrong. Nothing to worry about, its all just part of the process. But just in case a few Liberal nutjobs chose to blow this way out of proportion, the Senate really doesn't want any part of it. How does that old saying go? Something to do with evil...not seeing any. Meh, can't be that important.

Not one to waste a good diversion, Dubya imposes sanctions on Syria. That'll teach 'em camel jockeys.

edit: I really don't know where people come up with this, but I never implied that all of America was guilty. What I am implying, is that this is far more widespread than just a few cases here and there. Yeah, a handful of people made that policy, but thousands executed it. And "I was just following orders" has a pretty bad history as an excuse in any court of law.

[Flipside]

Yes, I've read the 'Part of the process' argument. I'd like to point out that several Muslim fanatics flew a plane into a building filled with civilians. Their orders came from higher up as well. And that, in the cold light of day, is an infinitely more bloody stupid thing to do, but they did it.

Some say this, some say that

And to prove that small mindedness and viciousness can happen anywhere

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=514&e=11&u=/ap/20040511/ap_on_re_mi_ea/egypt_iraq_american_beheaded

Not everything is a conspiracy, it just tends to look like it. And the above story is a prime time example of the tit for tat routine on a world scale which is dragging us ALL under, regardless of our opinion of the situation

[Rictor]

One act of injustice or brutality doesn't excuse another.

I actually find the analogy to be a very good one. 18 guys crash a plane in to the WTC, acting on orders from higher ups. Now the 18 are dead, and the higher ups are on the run, as is the entire organzation, since its purpose is clear: to kill Americans and their allies.

A handful of Americans torture Iraqis, and now they're in **** and the higher ups (read: Rummy) are "on the run". What is missing, however, is to recognize the purpose of the organization which they serve(d).

Originally posted by Flipside

Not everything is a conspiracy, it just tends to look like it.

I'd much rather err on the side of mistrust than on the side of naivete.

[Flipside]

I tend to aim for the middle and hope I hit reality

Edit : Oh, and I agree with your analogy regarding 911, just as I agree that two wrongs don't make a right. To me it just goes to show that one 'side' is no better than the 'other'. What confuses me is why thousands and thousands had to die or suffer for people to start realising such an obvious fact

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
edit: I really don't know where people come up with this, but I never implied that all of America was guilty.

Excrement.  Anything that gives you the slightest opportunity to talk smack about America you seize onto and never let go in the slightest.  I've already come to grips that all things American fill you with contempt.  Fine, you're entitled to your prejudices.

I call it "Kazan-itis".

edit: What I find the most appalling is you can dissect America for any dinky little mistake or error in judgement they make, but you would lay down and defend the people who do THIS .

[Rictor]

Reality is much more devious than it appears to be. My logic goes like this:

It is much, much easier to take and hold power with a lack or ethics. Therefore, and history backs me up on this, it can be assumed that anyone with power is unethical, unless they prove otherwise. Anyone with power will want to protect it, and the best way to protect it is through lies, misdirection, denial and anything else that is deemed to be effective.

Consipiracies are self-proving. If you believe that people with power are prone to consiparcies, then it naturally follows that they will seek to keep them hidden. Its like that cartoon posted here a while back "There is only one consipracy, and that is the one to make it seem like there is only one conspiracy" :D

But anyway, none of this is conspiracy theorizing, so its not really relevant.

[Rictor]

Originally posted by ionia23


Excrement.  Anything that gives you the slightest opportunity to talk smack about America you seize onto and never let go in the slightest.  I've already come to grips that all things American fill you with contempt.  Fine, you're entitled to your prejudices.

I call it "Kazan-itis".

edit: What I find the most appalling is you can dissect America for any dinky little mistake or error in judgement they make, but you would lay down and defend the people who do THIS .

It not prejudice, its fact. Lots and lots of fact.

And torture is not a "dinky little mistake". What makes you think tis a mistake? Anything that America does wrong, oh well its a mistake. Anything that "they" do wrong, they're evil by nature. Bull****. This isn't a mistake, its ****ing systemic.

This comes from your assumption that the American army is a pure and good organization. So, anything they do that is evil, well thats just a few stray sheep. al Queda kills, GIs kill, ain't no difference. It is folly to believe that any army is anything but an organized terrorist group.


And since when do I have to be defending anyone. I'm not ****ing defending either side. A lack of support for one side does not mean active support for the other. They're noth equally evilb
___________________

One man is beheaded, and this is worse than 10,000 dead civilians killed during the bombing and occupation? This is worse than 70% of the population of Abu Ghraib, rotting in jail nd being subjected to god knows what, when they're completely innocent? A life is a life is a life.

[Rictor]

Beheading vs this. Which is worse?

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor


It not prejudice, its fact. Lots and lots of fact.

And torture is not a "dinky little mistake". What makes you think tis a mistake? Anything that America does wrong, oh well its a mistake. Anything that "they" do wrong, they're evil by nature. Bull****. This isn't a mistake, its ****ing systemic.

This comes from your assumption that the American army is a pure and good organization. So, anything they do that is evil, well thats just a few stray sheep. al Queda kills, GIs kill, ain't no difference. It is folly to believe that any army is anything but an organized terrorist group.


And since when do I have to be defending anyone. I'm not ****ing defending either side. A lack of support for one side does not mean active support for the other. They're noth equally evilb
___________________

One man is beheaded, and this is worse than 10,000 dead civilians killed during the bombing and occupation? This is worse than 70% of the population of Abu Ghraib, rotting in jail nd being subjected to god knows what, when they're completely innocent? A life is a life is a life.

Once again, if it has anything whatsoever to do with all things American, it must be evil.  Time to stop wasting my time.

[mikhael]

Usually, I'd hate agreeing with Ionia, but he is, unfortunately, dead on right.

[Rictor]

I'm through wasting my breath. When you can and do sweep away anything I say by labelling me anti-American and all that that in you mind entails, no use trying to hold a...whats the word..discussion. If Bobby kills a man, he's a fault. If Jimmy kills a man, he is at fault. If America kills a man, pointing out how they are at fault is nothing but fair. This has everything to do with what is being perpetrated, and nothing to do with the identity of the perpertrator.

oh, thats right, I said I was through.