[Rictor]

No, I was just saying that you can't assume that they are guilty because they are in prison, since thats a self-proving claim with no evidence outside the "loop". Innocent until I see evidence proving otherwise, for every single man in there. And besides, as far as I'm concerned, the Army is on record as saying that 60% of detainees are innocent. Thats their claim, not mine.

[Bobboau]

if Sadr had 'hundreds of thosands' of people under him we'd be suffering much heavier losses than we are.

[Gank]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A22403-2004May12?language=printer

In the poll, which was taken just before the April uprising of the militia led by radical Shiite Muslim cleric Moqtada Sadr, a large proportion of Iraqis from the central and southern parts of the country said they backed him, with 45 percent of those in Baghdad saying they support him, and 67 percent in Basra.

67 percent in Basra alone is over a million supporters. 45 percent of Baghdad is 2 and a half million. Note when this was taken, right before the US decided to go after Sadr, remember what you said before about the US looking like it was trying to mess things up? Thats a CPA poll. You want a conspiracy theory for it check out www.raptureready.us and see where the antichrist comes from.

As for your casualties, bit of patience mate. The Mahdi armys been in control of Najaf, Karbala, Amarah, Samawah, Hilla and Kufa since the start of April and now they've ran the coalition out of Nasiriyah. The US is only starting to go after them now and as they enter more urbanised areas expect more losses. Mahdi army is only a militia though and is poorly equipped and trained so dont expect huge losses. US keeps going the way its going though they wont be fighting just the Mahdi army though.

[Bobboau]

there have been polls saying that 65% of the Iraqis want us to stay there, if there were 3 million people fighting us we wouldn't be there anymore. yes maybe some day soon they'll start there atack and we'll be pushed out, but maybe some day soon we'll find that huge stockpile of WMDs.

I'm aware of the fundies, why do all the crazed christian fundementalist web sites all end in .us

[Gank]

Because the crazed christian fundies are from the us?
And the dont all, the other major one is www.raptureready.com.

As for the polls, you're confusing the Mahdi army with Sadrism, the Mahdi army is a militia drawn from slums while the Sadr movement is a large politic-religious movement with a huge base which has existed under Saddams repression for decades. Its bigger than just Moqtada Al-Sadr and the Mahdi army and getting rid of those isnt going to make it go away. Not that the US could do it anyway, Saddam couldnt and he had longer and his hands werent as tied. The only way the US can salvage anything out of this is by cutting Sadr into the political process and dropping the charges, be a bit more embarrasing than the Fallujah farce but they're not going to gain anything by going after him. Even the guys hes supposed to have murdered's brother has said he doesnt want Sadr arrested.

btw have a link for that poll? and lol at the wmds, still banging that drum?

[Bobboau]

I don't have a link, but I'm sure you've herd of them, the war suporters were clammoring around them as proof that we were seen as liberators for the longest time.

and you know my point with the WMD remark meant that untill I see it I'm not going to beleive it.

[Gank]

I remember one which said a majority believed life was better now than under saddam, but thats not the same thing. As for the not believing it until you see it, not a bad attitude and hopefully you wont get to see it, but going on the US's track record in the country its unlikely.

[Rictor]

This is the most recent poll IIRC, 82% want US out.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001927572_iraqpoll13.html

[ionia23]

Originally posted by Rictor
This is the most recent poll IIRC, 82% want US out.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2001927572_iraqpoll13.html

Of course, you don't see them being asked about their opinions of the head-sawer-offers, do you.  noooooo.....

[Gank]

Eh, that would be because the poll was taken in march. Maybe if you actually read these things instead of jumping up on your little high horse you might sound a bit more intelligent?

[Rictor]

Originally posted by ionia23


Of course, you don't see them being asked about their opinions of the head-sawer-offers, do you.  noooooo.....

Because I'm sure that 4 guy in ski masks are having a negative effect on the lives of Iraqis as the US occupation. Again, you're blowing it way out of proportion. One guy getting beheaded is not the same as a year+ of brutal occupation.

[ionia23]

*comment deleted*


You know, screw it.  I'm starting to sink to the level of some of you.  I'm not doing it anymore.  Have it your way for now.

[Gank]

http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0420/perlstein.php

[DeepSpace9er]

Again, you're blowing it way out of proportion. One guy getting beheaded is not the same as a year+ of brutal occupation.

Um brutal is a very strong word. Brutal is what Saddam Hussein was to his own people: mass graves, rape rooms, torture (torture is not hazing-like sexual humiliation. Torture is cutting limbs off one at a time, stretching the body, cutting fingers and toes off etc.), forced consrciption, piss poor education.

AFAIK the US has reversed these things: rebuilt schools opoen to everyone including women who were previously barred, reconstruction of Iraqs infrastructure, giving the people freedom to choose thier leaders in Iraqs first free elections, rebuilding Iraqs army and police forces.

People who call this occupation in Iraq brutal have had life too easy and deserve to be occupied themselves by truly brutal occupiers. You will never EVER find a less brutal occupying force then the US, mark my words.

[SadisticSid]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er


Um brutal is a very strong word. Brutal is what Saddam Hussein was to his own people: mass graves, rape rooms, torture (torture is not hazing-like sexual humiliation. Torture is cutting limbs off one at a time, stretching the body, cutting fingers and toes off etc.), forced consrciption, piss poor education.

AFAIK the US has reversed these things: rebuilt schools opoen to everyone including women who were previously barred, reconstruction of Iraqs infrastructure, giving the people freedom to choose thier leaders in Iraqs first free elections, rebuilding Iraqs army and police forces.

People who call this occupation in Iraq brutal have had life too easy and deserve to be occupied themselves by truly brutal occupiers. You will never EVER find a less brutal occupying force then the US, mark my words.

Yeah, you don't get the US throwing their enemies in acid baths or executing prisoners at random. Their presence is far better than Saddam's. However saying that the US forces are the least brutal occupiers is quite unlikely - no slur on them, but there are more experienced soldiers around such as those men in the British Army who were involved with peacekeeping duties in NI.

[Gank]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
Um brutal is a very strong word. Brutal is what Saddam Hussein was to his own people: mass graves, rape rooms, torture (torture is not hazing-like sexual humiliation. Torture is cutting limbs off one at a time, stretching the body, cutting fingers and toes off etc.), forced consrciption, piss poor education.

Theres now mass graves in fallujah, torture in Abu Gharib, and setting dogs on people is torture, and at least one case of rape caught on camera. Remeber Saddam had decades to commit his atrocitys, US is just beginning.

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
AFAIK the US has reversed these things: rebuilt schools opoen to everyone including women who were previously barred,

No they werent

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
reconstruction of Iraqs infrastructure,

Which the US destroyed:rolleyes:

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
giving the people freedom to choose thier leaders in Iraqs first free elections,

Elections? You havent given them that freedom, The IGC was handpicked by the US and so will be the body which take soverignty on june 30th, though the US will remain in full control
 

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
rebuilding Iraqs army and police forces.

Which the US destroyed

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
People who call this occupation in Iraq brutal have had life too easy and deserve to be occupied themselves by truly brutal occupiers. You will never EVER find a less brutal occupying force then the US, mark my words.

Spoken by someone from a country which has never been occupied by anyone. A country built on land taken from the natives who were slaughtered or stuck on reservations. People like you should spend a month in Abu Gharib with a hood on your head and some hillbilly chick sticking a broomstick up your arse repeatedly.

[Gank]

Originally posted by SadisticSid
Yeah, you don't get the US throwing their enemies in acid baths or executing prisoners at random. Their presence is far better than Saddam's. However saying that the US forces are the least brutal occupiers is quite unlikely - no slur on them, but there are more experienced soldiers around such as those men in the British Army who were involved with peacekeeping duties in NI.

Or the Irish army in the Leb, or the Norwegians, or basically anyone whos served overseas and not let rip with a machinegun anytime someone threw a stone at them.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by DeepSpace9er
rebuilt schools opoen to everyone including women who were previously barred

Wanna explain why Iraqs chemical weapons speciallist who was captured a few months before Saddam was a woman then?

Seriosuly DS9er. If you want to complain about Iraq at least get your facts straight.

[Rictor]

what gank said, to which I will add that it is patently naive to believe that the torture is happening ONLY when it is captured on camera. During Saddam's rule, you believed every sad story by every former prisoners about acid baths and rape rooms. Well, fair enough, I agree with you there. But you can't just turn around now and not believe those same people coming out of US prisons, saying that they were tortured far in excess of what we're now seeing on photographs. And there are many outside, Western sources now confirming that.

[Rictor]

Cover-ups here   and here .

and, former Guantanamo head sacked for being too soft on prisoners

also, they arrested several employees of NBC (news channel), who were beaten and humiliated while in custody. article here