[an0n]

Originally posted by Killfrenzy
An0n, the Hood was dispatched by the admiralty along with Prince of Wales simply because she was fast enough to catch Bismarck and still match her firepower as they both had 15" guns. Denmark Straight would have been a lot different were it not for a piece of extremely lucky shooting by a German gunnery officer early in the battle.

Err....bad phrasing on my part.

I meant that the Hood (and all battlecruisers) was built to out-run big ships, not specifically the Bismark.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Are those the anchors, or two bloody huge torpedo tubes?

[redmenace]

Originally posted by an0n

w00t, the O'Niel

[an0n]

"That's O'Neill. *holds up 3 fingers* Two L's"

[Killfrenzy]

Originally posted by Petrarch of the VBB
Are those the anchors, or two bloody huge torpedo tubes?

If you mean the rounded things on the bow of Bismarck then they are anchor cluses, that particular design being very common on German warships of the period. However, they weren't particularly brilliant as they channeled ocean spray up into a fountain which was more than a little annoying!

An0n, the battlecruiser idea was indeed for a ship that could maintain a high speed to catch heavy units, but they still had to mount the firepower necessary to demolish or cripple the unit they were catching. The decision to use Hood was partly because she was fast enough to keep up with Bismarck, and partly because she was the only ship at Scapa Flow that could match Bismarck's guns when she got there. HMS Queen Elizabeth was also at Scapa, but she sailed for Alexandria during May, so was unable to participate. Although she was a battleship with 15" guns, she only had a top speed of 24knots, which put her a full six knots behind Bismarck.

The dispatch of Hood wasn't so much a strategic choice as a lack of options as not even Repulse (pulled off convoy duty along with Victorious to join in) could quite catch the Bismarck, and even if she could she'd be one turret short. The duty fell to Hood to put a stop to it, and when she was destroyed by pure chance, it fell to the cruisers and aircraft from Victorious and critically Ark Royal to catch her.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

The Hood was also weakened by structural stress, as the turrets were placed quite near the ends of the hull, placing a great deal of strain on it.

So I've heard.

[Tiara]

You people talk like you actually know stuff. Nobody knows. Nobody really knows where it was hit. The information from that time is iffy at best.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Tiara
You people talk like you actually know stuff. Nobody knows. Nobody really knows where it was hit. The information from that time is iffy at best.

Well, the case has been studied, and the derelict checked toroughly. Plus there's many reports, and witnesses, even german survivors from the Bismarck. So ow it went is actually pretty well known now. The only dark point was knowing if the Bismarck was sunken by the brits or by its own crew. This was answered with Cameron's expedition, tho: the Bismarck, altho heavily crippled, were not to sunk ( the brits wanted so much to kill it that they actually came too close to it, and no shell would go under the water surface and hit the underwater part of the hull ), the germans decided to put an end to that hell and sunk the ship themselves.
So yeah, we ( general we ) can assume that we know what happened, indeed.

[redmenace]

Originally posted by Tiara
You people talk like you actually know stuff. Nobody knows. Nobody really knows where it was hit. The information from that time is iffy at best.

Only thing that really matters is the fact that the British vanquished the terror of the atlantic(the Bismark) and avenged the Hood.

Believe it or not there is a song by Johnny Horton about the sinking the bismark.
In May of nineteen forty-one the war had just begun
The Germans had the biggest ship that had the biggest guns
The Bismark was the fastest ship that ever sailed the seas
On her deck were guns as big as steers and shells as big as trees

Out of the cold and foggy night came the British ship the Hood
And evry British seaman, he knew and understood
They had to sink the Bismark, the terror of the sea
Stop those guns as big as steers and those shells as big as trees

 We'll find that German battleship thats makin' such a fuss
 We gotta sink the Bismark 'cause the world depends on us
 Hit the decks a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
 When we find the Bismark we gotta cut her down

The Hood found the Bismark and on that fatal day
The Bismark started firin' fifteen miles away
We gotta sink the Bismark was the battle sound
But when the smoke had cleared away, the mighty Hood went down

For six long days and weary nights they tried to find her trail
Churchill told the people "Put ev'ry ship a-sail"
'Cause somewhere on that ocean I know she's gotta be
We gotta sink the Bismark to the bottom of the sea

 We'll find that German battleship thats makin' such a fuss
 We gotta sink the Bismark 'cause the world depends on us
 Hit the decks a-runnin' boys and spin those guns around
 When we find the Bismark we gotta cut her down

The fog was gone on the seventh day and they saw the mornin' sun
Ten hours away from homeland the Bismark made its' run
The admiral of the British fleet said "Turn those bows around"
We found that German battleship and we're gonna cut her down

The British guns were aimed and the shells were comin' fast
The first shell hit the Bismark, they knew she couldn't last
That mighty German battleship is just a memory
"Sink the Bismark" was the battle cry that shook the seven seas

We found that German battleship was makin' such a fuss
We had to sink the Bismark 'cause the world depends on us
We hit the decks a-runnin' and we spun those guns around
Yeah, we found the mighty Bismark and then we cut her down

We found that German battleship was makin' such a fuss
We had to sink the Bismark 'cause the world depends on us
We hit the decks a-runnin' and we spun those guns around
We found the mighty Bismark and then we cut her down.

[Tiara]

Haha, your ignorance is too great Redmenace

And Venom *thumbs up*

[neo_hermes]

*cough*

[Nico]

Originally posted by Tiara
And Venom *thumbs up*

why?
making fun of me or what?

[Tiara]

No, you made a good solid argument

I'm not that bad... at least not all the time

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Killfrenzy
Besides, if the Bismarck was an 'inferior WWI design' then why the hell did the Royal Navy go mad over trying to sink her? She was as fast as Hood and as well armed and armoured as any comparable battleship of the time you care to name. Leave the Iowa class out of that equation as they were post-1941 designs.

Bismarck:  29 knots.
North Carolina:  28 knots

Bismarck: 41,700 tons standard.
North Carolina:  37,484 tons standard.

Bismarck: 4 dual 15"/52, 6 dual 5.9"/55, 8 dual 4.1"/65, 8 dual 37 mm, 12 20 mm
North Carolina: 3 triple 16"/45cal, 10 dual 5"/38cal DP, 4 quad 1.1 inch AA, 18 .50 cal MG

Bismarck: 10.6-12.6" belt, 3.1-4.7" deck, 14.2" turrets, 13.8 inch CT
North Carolina:  6.6-12" belt, 5-5.5" deck, 14.7-16" barbettes, 9.8-16" turrets, 7-16" CT

On a smaller displacement, the North Carolina has comparable armor which is actually thicker over the important sections, plus, most importantly, it had bigger guns.  The 16"/45s on the North Carolina were not quite as overall good as the 16"/50s on the Iowas, but they are still generally a superior piece of ordnance to the Bismarck's guns, particularly in long range engagements where the heavy 2700 pound shells (a full half-ton heavier than the Bismarck's shells) will be plunging down into the Bismarck's relatively poor deck armor.  The Bismarck does have a greater refire rate, allegedly 20 compared to 30 seconds, but I've heard that the gun crews might not have been able to keep that up during a longer engagement.

The Bismarck was a worry not because it could seriously harm the Royal Fleet but because it was a fast, well armed and well protected commerce raider.   Had it escaped into the Atlantic and lost its pursuers it could had done incredible damage to allied shipping.

Of course in hindsight we can probably agree the Bismarck would have done more for the Nazi war effort if its metal had gone into making U-boats.

[Nico]

Originally posted by Tiara
No, you made a good solid argument

I'm not that bad... at least not all the time

Ah well, sorry then, and thanks, I guess.

[Killfrenzy]

Shrike, minor correction:

Bismarck

Speed: 28 knots (designed), 30.8 knots (actual service maximum)

I also would like to point out the word 'comparable.' 16" guns will beat a set of 15" any day, so having many of the US battleships into the Bismarck equation is rather pointless as A) they mounted 16" guns anyway and B) they served in the Pacific rather then the Atlantic, so would never have come into contact even if the US had joined the war before May 1941. Besides, they'd have to catch her first....

A comparable matchup would be HMS Warspite against Bismarck, or HMS Rodney against a the USS South Dakota. That's a 15" vs 15" matchup and a 16" vs 16" matchup.

I said to mention comparable battleships to leave out the 16" sledgehammer carriers such as Rodney and the North Carolina, as they carried greater firepower. Most of the RN battleships mounted a set of 8 15" guns, and it was these ships that the Bismarck was designed against.

The Royal Navy's fear stemmed partly from the sheer damage that Bismarck could do on her own, and partly because of the very real possiblity that she would hook up with Scharnhorst and Gneisenau. We'd had enough trouble with them since 1939 and the Deadly Duo had just been on a rampage of the North Atlantic.

Don't get me wrong, I like the US battleships, particularly the Iowa class, which I think is possibly the pinnacle of battleship design. I just prefer the more graceful speed demons that came out of Wilhelmshaven and Kiel. If I was given the (hypothetical) choice between sailing the USS Missouri or the Scharnhorst, I'd pick the Scharnhorst for her 32 knots, rapid rate of fire and pretty good armour.

[Sandwich]

You guys just had to do it again, didn't you? Inspired me with all those pictures, so I spent my whole evening making something. Humph!

[Admiral Nelson]

Originally posted by Nico


Coz you consider drawings an historical proof? then at least, find two that show the same damages, coz on pic 2, your missing turret is still there, obviously
See, they've been filmed, these turrets, we KNOW how they were, and their armor was NOT pierced. You do are aware that the Bismarck did not die in a fiery explosion coz her amunition stoarge was never hit? You're gonna tell me that out of the 2,876 that were shot at her, NONE hit the ammo storages?
Ah well, I guess that ship did hurt somewhere, people trying to sink her down again 50 years later

Note B turret in the drawing (based on the findings of the Cameron expedition and eyewitness testimony).Its too bad the drawing is so tiny, but the turret was knocked off the barbette. You can (barely) make out how askew it is in the image. I didn't mean entirely knocked off the ship. The second painting depicts the ship before its end state in the first pic; notice A turret still operational.

You do are aware that the Bismarck did not die in a fiery explosion coz her amunition stoarge was never hit? You're gonna tell me that out of the 2,876 that were shot at her, NONE hit the ammo storages?
[\quote]

As others mention, the British closed the range, denying them plunging fire into the magazines. Few battleships actually blow up when lost as Hood did.

From http://www.navalships.org/dkm02.html

With the range down to 16,000 yards, King George V turned to starboard to bring her after turret into action and, three and a half minutes later, Rodney conformed, a 16_inch or 14_inch shell penetrated Bismarck's 'Bruno' turret, detonated inside, and blew the rear plate of the gun_house over the ship's side. At about the same time, a shell destroyed her foretop, together with the central armament_control position, and killed most of the senior officers.
[\quote]

I'm sure sure i've read a quote of Mullenheim-Rechberg in which he mentions looking into B turret through the hole torn in it.

An interesting comparison of various battleships may be found at Nihon Kaigun
Note that Bismarck doesn't come out too favorably. Bismarck gets quite a bit of attention on their FAQ page.

[Geezer]

The Alaska Class.  The US version of the Battlecruiser.

[Shrike]

Originally posted by Killfrenzy
I also would like to point out the word 'comparable.' 16" guns will beat a set of 15" any day, so having many of the US battleships into the Bismarck equation is rather pointless as A) they mounted 16" guns anyway and B) they served in the Pacific rather then the Atlantic, so would never have come into contact even if the US had joined the war before May 1941. Besides, they'd have to catch her first....

What's wrong with the NoCos?  They were laid down at roughly the same time and actually have a lower displacement.  The Warspite is twenty five years older than the Bismarck so it's not a particularly good comparison.