[Admiral Nelson]

Just as a considerable improvement can be acheived by pushing out the LOD values for explosions, so too could some improvement be acheived by pushing out the LOD0:

Before:


After:


Done in 10 seconds of editing.  

Thw V models are fairly low poly anyway; I don't think that this would be too big a hit on frame rate.

Any thoughts on the idea?

[Unknown Target]

You must've had your detail settings pretty low for those ships to be at that LOD level that close.

[Fineus]

What exactly did you do? Just remove the other LODs so there was nothing to switch to?

I mean I like the idea in theory... sometimes the pretty new backgrounds really show up the low poly box LODs that most ships have at long range and it looks nasty. Removing or setting it as optional would be great

[Flipside]

How about a LOD Distance multiplier, say between 1-5? You can then set it according to your own systems needs?

[DaBrain]

I never saw ships that ugly as in your 'before' shot...


I thought if you choose very high quality the LOD(1,2,3,...) won't be used anyway.

[Admiral Nelson]

All I did was open up ships.tbl and increase the numbers such that LOD0 is used for a longer distance. For some reason, the Hippocrates LOD0 was used only out to a distance of 100 (Derelict ships.tbl), which is how I happened to notice how ugly the LOD1 is.

All that would be required is to boost the LOD0 numbers up some ways, and thus one would not have to see the ugly lower LODs.

[WMCoolmon]

An even cheaper route is to increase your graphics settings...

[Black Wolf]

He's right about the hippo though. The lods are really noticable, especially with glowmaps enabled.

[Lightspeed]

Its NOT all down to quality settings. Theres ships that use insanely stupid LOD switching distances in the tables. The Hippocrates is a very good example.

[Admiral Nelson]

This was taken at max quality minus one 'dot.'

The Hippocrates seems to have strange values for its detail distance -- number more appropriate to a fighter, say.

The issue is, I think, that at Very High quality LODs don't get used, or so I understand. Wouldn't that mean as high poly ships and big textures get added, cycle after cycle will be wasted rendering many ploys, shine maps, glow maps, (and later) bump maps and damage decals etc etc on ships no bigger than a speck on the screen?

Therefore, I was thinking that judicious table changes could allow the detail slider to be more meaningful for modern systems -- the first screen is what you see at one 'dot' below max. Thus, you have the choice only of 'crappy' or 'ultra high' detail with the current table settings. So why not revise these as part of the process of improving the ships? By pushing the LODs out further, one could make the game pretty at less than Very High settings, avoiding all the extra processing that would come with no LODs available at all.

Just a thought....

[DaBrain]

A new ships table, with better LOD distances (or none ?)
would be a good idea.

Might be something for a high end media VP.


Good thinking there Admiral Nelson.


Edit: Admiral Nelson, Sir !

[Lightspeed]

Well, *I* think the whole LOD system will have to be redone.

Push the LODs two or three steps further so you have:

LOD1 ultra hi-poly (or standard for those without new models)
LOD2 hi-poly (or standard for those without new models)
LOD3 retail model
.. etc

That needs to be done to ALL models (and textures, LOD1 = 1024², LOD2 = 512², LOD3 = 256²) and then the tables adjusted for it.

Then the SCP team will have to change the effects of some option sliders.

Like that, we have working options again (and not everyone is just maxed out) and everyone can set his detail to what he thinks appropriate. Right now, LOD switching is completely useless and only looks crap - I think our focus should be making it attractive again, and 'upgrading' everything to a level so that the options make sense again.

[KARMA]

just add a couple more lods (6 instead of 4) and let modders decide what to do

[Admiral Nelson]

That all sounds excellent, Lightspeed, but would take a while to implement, I would think. My thoughts were born more out of a concern that the new SCP features might overwhelm a system set to 'Very High,' since all that stuff is being rendered on everything, no matter how small. The only alternative is one click below max, which gives the craptastic image at the top.

Sooo.... in line with the 'cheap' comment in the title, if we agreed upon a distance detail value for LOD0 for ships of different sizes, e.g Destroyers are X, Frigates Y, fighters Z, all the values could be updated in a matter of minutes.

Perhaps this is just me being over worried about system drain due to no LODs; I suppose Bobbau or someone like that could describe the performance impact and whether or not this idea is worth anything....

[Lightspeed]

Karma:no. This hasnt worked in the past and wont work in the future.

We don't need more LODs. We need LODs that make sense with current computer systems.

[Lightspeed]

Nelson: I'm afraid your information is wrong. LODs are being rendered even at maximum settings. So you can put that dot up if you want. It will still give a crappy image at the situation shown above (though not as drastic).

[KARMA]

you are wrong.
many modders already made 6 lods for their own ship: they can be converted and modelview will show them, but according to kazan FSO use only the first 4.
Also, it seem stupid to me to use something more than a borg cube when your ship use not more than 5 or 6 pixels on your monitor, as well as using 256x256 textures on it.
Low poly lods are there for a reason.....
And if you see lods switching then there is something wrong, and what is wrong is not in the lod system but in the artist/table editor who made a too crappy lod1 or setted a wrong lod distance in the tables.
Again, just give to the  modders 2 additional lods, the modders will be free to decide if they want to use those 2 additional lods, maybe just using higher res textures, or if they don't want to bother making more job. They will decide if they want to make ultra high detail models for very close distances with cockpits or a picard's head in a window of an enterprise bridge, and regular models to be used at action-distance.
Maybe make the effects (glow and spec) distance related and not lod related, if possible. Elseway, apply the effects to the first 1-3 lods, and use the detail settings to decide if to apply them just to lod 0 or up to lod3.
Also, use the settings to modify the lod distances of the tables, adapting them to the different needs, maybe not showing lod0-1 on outdated systems.
that's it

[Admiral Nelson]

Thanks, Lightspeed, I stand corrected.

That said, would there not be some value in at least fixing up the detail distance values to avoid such a hideous result as the first image?

[aldo_14]

I'm against anything that requires more work from me

[Lightspeed]

It's in the ships table, Nelson.