[Rictor]

Here, I'll tell you something. If their royal highnesses accept me, I will probably be going to Sheridan College, pretty well known for design stuff. I just found out that its going to cost me $6600 per year, plus $1000-$3000 per year for extra materials. The course runs for 4 years, so the amount which I pay them will total roughly 35-40 thousand dollars.

Now, I will learn, I admit that. But will the knowledge I gain be worth 40,000? I could put a down-payment on a house for that money. I could start up a small drug operation. I could get myself a great car. I could travel the world for a year or so. And you know what I suspect? That I could learn design just as well if I were to sit at home for a year, browse design websites and have Photoshop open to experiment.

And what do I get, four greuling years and 40,000 later? The privilege to work my ass of for 35 grand a year, thinking up new and exciting ways to sell people overpriced **** they don't really want. And consider, this is the best case scenario. This is IF they accept me, IF I have the 40,000, and IF I manage to find work after college.

Lucky me, my cup runeth over!

[an0n]

So you want to pay them $40k for doing nothing for 4 years, then graduate with a diploma that proves you can cheat, then never get a chance of a real career because after 2 weeks at any job they'll realise you know ****-all and sack you?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
Here, I'll tell you something. If their royal highnesses accept me, I will probably be going to Sheridan College, pretty well known for design stuff. I just found out that its going to cost me $6600 per year, plus $1000-$3000 per year for extra materials. The course runs for 4 years, so the amount which I pay them will total roughly 35-40 thousand dollars.

Now, I will learn, I admit that. But will the knowledge I gain be worth 40,000? I could put a down-payment on a house for that money. I could start up a small drug operation. I could get myself a great car. I could travel the world for a year or so. And you know what I suspect? That I could learn design just as well if I were to sit at home for a year, browse design websites and have Photoshop open to experiment.

And what do I get, four greuling years and 40,000 later? The privilege to work my ass of for 35 grand a year, thinking up new and exciting ways to sell people overpriced **** they don't really want. And consider, this is the best case scenario. This is IF they accept me, IF I have the 40,000, and IF I manage to find work after college.

Lucky me, my cup runeth over!

so why don't you just go and buy a 'life experience degree' of the internet, if that's how you feel?  Now, i know that (what I presume is) the US education system is stupid in its expenses, but thats no excuse for effectively stealing a qualification.

And even if you did somehow manage to cheat and copy your way to the end, you'd still end up getting found out when you went to your first job.  

Don't give me some ****e that overpriced tuition fees are a license to cheat.  Thats crap.  there's no excuse.  If you don;t value the education, don;t go.  If you think it's too expensive, go abroad to where its cheaper and quite possibly better.

It's up to you whether you think it;s better to spend xx grand on 4 years of cut and paste, or 4 years of actually learning what you're going to do for the rest of your life.

[Rictor]

lots of accusations flying my way. I'm not lazy at all. I work as hard as anyone else, IF I judge that where I will end up is where I want to be.

If you accuse me of being lazy and lcaking integrity, I accuse you of blindly following the road that has been provided. Living life on rails.

Go from Strop 1, elementary school, to Stop 2, highschool, to Stop 3, university, to Stop 4, work, to Stop 5, a family, to Stop 6, retirement, to Stop 7, death. And don't forget to buy as much useless crap as you can along the way, becasue your worth as a person is defined by the amount of junk you have.

See, I question, why the hell do they deserve my money? Will I get my moneys worth? WHo built this system, and who is to say that its a good as it can be. Who is to say that there isn't something better?

Integrity has nothing to do with school. What have they ever done to earn my integrity?

I don't doubt that you all work very hard in University, and I even believe you when you say you've never plagarised, but does someone want to explain to me why its fair that you work your ass off, while some kid with rich parents and connections can coast through life, without every lifting a finger, and still live b better than most of you ever will. I refuse to obey a system that allows that.

/rant

edit: this may have gone a bit OT.

[an0n]

Rictor, even by my standards of 'flexible integrity', your entire argument is so retarded on so many levels I don't even know where to start on the blatant stupidity.

So I'll focus on the most obvious point: You don't want to go through the system, but you want to go to college, university, get a job.....Basically, follow the system. You just don't want to work at Uni. And if that's so, why are you even going?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
lots of accusations flying my way. I'm not lazy at all. I work as hard as anyone else, IF I judge that where I will end up is where I want to be.

If you accuse me of being lazy and lcaking integrity, I accuse you of blindly following the road that has been provided. Living life on rails.

Go from Strop 1, elementary school, to Stop 2, highschool, to Stop 3, university, to Stop 4, work, to Stop 5, a family, to Stop 6, retirement, to Stop 7, death. And don't forget to buy as much useless crap as you can along the way, becasue your worth as a person is defined by the amount of junk you have.

See, I question, why the hell do they deserve my money? Will I get my moneys worth? WHo built this system, and who is to say that its a good as it can be. Who is to say that there isn't something better?

Integrity has nothing to do with school. What have they ever done to earn my integrity?

I don't doubt that you all work very hard in University, and I even believe you when you say you've never plagarised, but does someone want to explain to me why its fair that you work your ass off, while some kid with rich parents and connections can coast through life, without every lifting a finger, and still live b better than most of you ever will. I refuse to obey a system that allows that.

/rant

If you think 'Living life on rails' amounts to actually deserving what i have, then I'm happy to.  I'm not concerned with rich kids or wealthy families, or any of that pish.

 I know people who have it easier, and those who have it much, much harder than me.  I know people who are much smarter, and those who are dumber.  I know people who can coast through the work, and those who work as much as I do.

At the end of the day, I don;t care about any of it.  I judge myself by who I am, not who other people are.  You can whine about 'the system' all you want, but 99% of use will only get out of life what we are willing to put in.

you want to try and coast your way to some degree (or whatever) that's worth - in terms of effort and what you've gained - about as much bog paper, then fine.  But I'd rather have something I can value, and I work(ed) my arse off because i know I'll have achieved something.

Incidentally, I find it strangely bizarre that you find it unusual that I have never plagarised.  In my experience, the people that have to plagarise get caught out and end up chucked out.  And in the most case, they lack the intelligence or effort to make it beyond the first year, anyways.

[Rictor]

because for the time being, I have no better plans. The second I can come up with something better to do, I'm ditching this. You could say I'm doing this by default. And even so, I'm tempted to say, screw it, its not worth the price, and go learn design on my own, better than they would ever teach me.

as for ethics, consider this:

you are captured by the mob, and interogatted. You're pretty sure that you can get away with lieing to them, and if you can, its going to save you time and money. Do you feel compeled to tell them the truth, because you're a nice person? No way, they jackholes and not worthy of your integrity. I've heard the "its not about them, its about you" arguement, and I don't agree. I won't lie to my mother, but I will lie to the Revenue Canada (tax collectors), because I don't respect them. If I can get away with it, sure. Similarly, I will lie to get out of military service, to get the government to apporve a loan etc etc.

edit: aldo, I was talking about plagarising and/or cheating in highschool. I imagine its a hell of a lot harder in University.

[an0n]

By your analogy, you'd be lying to the mob and still giving them all your time and money.

So you'd be no better off, but you'd have lied to the mob.

[Rictor]

I'm not saying that people should be able to coast through life without doing any work. not at all. But I'm arguing that the time of money (and to a lesser degree, effort) that goes into attaining a University degree is not usually, equal to the payoff at the end.

I'm not disputing the principal, I'm disputing the specifics of investment/return.

I also believe that education is a right, not a privilege. Instead of sinking $10 billion dollars (or whatever) each year into buying tanks and guns, why doesn't the government pay a percentage, or even all, of the costs of University tuition. Do you honestly believe that the UK is going to be attacked any time soon, and you'll be cursing yourself for getting rid of all the guns in favour of a vastly improved education system? I doubt it....

It sounds to me like most students are working their asses off at University. Now, do you believe that after you graduate, you will be able to find a job that pays well enough to have made that effort worth while? I for one dont want to give up 4 years of my life, probably among the best ones, so that I can live packcheck the paycheck, with bill collectors hounding me. Thanks, I can accomplish that feat without the help of University.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Rictor
because for the time being, I have no better plans. The second I can come up with something better to do, I'm ditching this. You could say I'm doing this by default. And even so, I'm tempted to say, screw it, its not worth the price, and go learn design on my own, better than they would ever teach me.

as for ethics, consider this:

you are captured by the mob, and interogatted. You're pretty sure that you can get away with lieing to them, and if you can, its going to save you time and money. Do you feel compeled to tell them the truth, because you're a nice person? No way, they jackholes and not worthy of your integrity. I've heard the "its not about them, its about you" arguement, and I don't agree. I won't lie to my mother, but I will lie to the Revenue Canada (tax collectors), because I don't respect them. If I can get away with it, sure. Similarly, I will lie to get out of military service, to get the government to apporve a loan etc etc.

firstly, you are pulling examples out of your arse.  You are giving one where you are in some way avoiding harm - i.e. self (or financial) preservation.  

It's simple, and i'll put in a clear context.

- the purpose of university is to gain a valuable education.
- this includes a certification of that learning, by the form of academic qualification which is used by prospective employers to judge your ability and intellignce
- if you do not do the work, then you do not deserve this ceritifcation.  
 - In other words, if you copy rather than actually learn and understand what you're studying, then you have not learned anything and do not deserve a qualification
- if you somehow manage to cheat your way to a qualification, and get a job, then you are essentially stealing someone elses job (who is qualified)
- you are also defrauding your employer
- and also harming other people - both in terms of the lower class of work you will invariably put in, and also in the effect that will have on the reputation of proper graduates from your university
- you are also hruting yourself, as you will be asked to do work you are incapable of performing, based upon the fact you never studied it

And that's excluding the whole moral issue that you'd be basically pissing all over other peoples effort and work by stealing an education.

Plagarism & cheating is stealing.  Simple as that.

I've made it evident, i think, that I regard people who cheat/lie/copy their way through education and, by extension,  life as being essentially worthless human beings.

If you want to keep on making excuses, go ahead.  But the only person who'll fall for them is you - not anyone else on this board, and sure as hell not the first person to catch you out and kick you out.  There's no moral or ethical excuse, and no financial one either.  The only people whop think there are / is one, are those who need it to try and justify themselves.

[an0n]

Originally posted by Rictor
I'm not saying that people should be able to coast through life without doing any work. not at all. But I'm arguing that the time of money (and to a lesser degree, effort) that goes into attaining a University degree is not usually, equal to the payoff at the end.

It is if you put in some effort and use what you've learned. But God forbid that you should actually be expected to work for your money. I mean, you've already put in 4 whole years of work, shouldn't that be enough for the rest of your life?

I'm not disputing the principal, I'm disputing the specifics of investment/return.

No, you're disputing the principle.

I also believe that education is a right, not a privilege.

So you're annoyed that other people aren't paying to give you an education?

Get a ****ing clue. Everyone should have to pay for their own education and they do. It's called TAXES. If you want a better education, go protest for increased taxes.

Highschool is your free education. Why should anyone have to pay just so you can get a better job and live a better life? Why should someone living in a $40/week apartment with no electricity and a crappy water supply, trying to support 5 kids, have to pay so you can go to some 'design school'?

Instead of sinking $10 billion dollars (or whatever) each year into buying tanks and guns, why doesn't the government pay a percentage, or even all, of the costs of University tuition. Do you honestly believe that the UK is going to be attacked any time soon, and you'll be cursing yourself for getting rid of all the guns in favour of a vastly improved education system? I doubt it....

From the level of stupidity demonstrated in this paragraph alone, you don't deserve to be allowed to pay for further education.

I'll tell you what, we'll get rid of all our guns and our tanks and our planes then the next time the Albanians are being slaughtered we'll send you in to fight for them. And when every piss-poor country in the world with an axe to grind sees Britain has no defences and we get into a cluster-**** for our lives and when hundreds of thousands of people are being butchered every day, we can sit back and be proud that we spent all our money on education; that those aren't just any kids being killed, they're the smartest darn kids in the whole, wide, crater-riddled world.

You fuc[color=32423][/color]king moron.

It sounds to me like most students are working their asses off at University. Now, do you believe that after you graduate, you will be able to find a job that pays well enough to have made that effort worth while? I for one dont want to give up 4 years of my life, probably among the best ones, so that I can live packcheck the paycheck, with bill collectors hounding me. Thanks, I can accomplish that feat without the help of University.

Well, Cletus, why the f[color=3231][/color]uck are you going to University?

[karajorma]

Sometimes Rictor's ability to talk nonsense surprises me

I think we've passed stupidity and are into out and out trolling here.

[an0n]

Nah, I think he knows he's talking crap and is just trying to evade having to admit he was wrong in the first place.

[karajorma]

Actually I've seen Rictor admit he's wrong before so unless he believes that doing it too many times invokes the Candyman or something he either really does believe what he's saying or is trolling.

[Langy]

It sounds to me like most students are working their asses off at University. Now, do you believe that after you graduate, you will be able to find a job that pays well enough to have made that effort worth while? I for one dont want to give up 4 years of my life, probably among the best ones, so that I can live packcheck the paycheck, with bill collectors hounding me. Thanks, I can accomplish that feat without the help of University.

Why yes. Yes I do believe a $70k a year sallary is worth the $60k I'm paying in order to go to one of the best schools in the world for my major. And that's just the average starting salary. Even with having to pay off loans and everything, I'm still going to be making more than enough money but, more importantly, doing a job I want. And, hopefully, I'll be doing it good due to my education and all the hard work I'm putting into it.

Oh, and no, I don't plagarise. Nor do I cheat. Neither of those things helps you in learning, which is the whole damn reason I go to school. It isn't about getting a job, and it isn't about doing it because the system tells me to. It's about simply learning the stuff. Since going to college is probably one of the best ways to learn engineering and things of that nature, I'm definitely going. A great bonus is that I'll also be able to get a stellar job and work in a field I love.