Originally posted by Gank
No, Jesus is not the same as allah, because even Jesus himself never claimed to be God. In fact, in Matthew 13:53-58, he distinctly refers to himself as a prophet
Ahh, very good. Now please notice that Jesus does lay claim to the title "Son of God", whereas Islam quite publically holds that God HAS NO SON.
Originally posted by Gank
He agreed to everything the Israelis offered, apart from their retention of control of the Al-Aqsa mosque, the third holiest site to Islam. That is why talks collapsed, not because he wants to destroy you for Satan.
If you wanna get into a "holier than that" fight, then the Al-Aqsa mosque happens to be situated on the Temple Mount, the FIRST holiest site to Judaism. So there.
Besides, the Koran doesn't even mention Jerusalem directly once. There are a couple of references that could very well be referring to Jerusalem, but it seems kinda lax for Numero Tres.
Originally posted by Gank
Let me spell this out for you, in 1948 jewish immigrants declared a republic on land that was not theirs. They started the war, plain and simple. Your example applies to your version, not mine, the arab response came after the Israeli action, not before. It is you who is IGNORING history.
Oh please:
[q]On November 29, 1947, the U.N. General Assembly by a two-thirds vote (33 to 13 with Britain and nine others abstaining) passed Resolution 181 partitioning Palestine into two states, one Jewish and one Arab. The Jewish community of Palestine jubilantly accepted partition despite the small size and strategic vulnerability of the proposed state. Not only were Judea, Samaria and the Gaza Strip not included, but also Jerusalem, most of the Galilee in the North and parts of the Negev desert in the South were excluded. The Arab national movement in Palestine, as well as all the Arab states, angrily rejected partition. They demanded the entire country for themselves and threatened to resist partition by force. Had they accepted the U.N. proposal in 1947, the independent Palestinian Arab state, covering an area much larger than the West Bank and Gaza, would have been created along with Israel. Instead, they launched a war to destroy the nascent Jewish state.
UNSCOP reported to the Security Council on 16 February 1948:
Organized efforts are being made by strong Arab elements inside and outside Palestine to prevent the implementation of the Assembly's plan of partition and to thwart its objectives by threats and acts of violence, including armed incursions into Palestinian territory ... This Commission now finds itself confronted with an attempt to defeat its purposes, and to nullify the resolution of the General Assembly.
The UN had no army to enforce its decisions, and Britain would not use its forces in place for more than self-defense during the transition to independence scheduled for May 15, 1948. Consequently, small-unit warfare was conducted around the British all winter and spring, with the Jewish forces improving their holdings at the cost of several thousand Jews killed or wounded. As the first streams of Arab refugees were fleeing from towns overrun by Jewish units, a coalition of Arab nations was planning to invade Palestine immediately after the British evacuation on May 14, 1948. The invasion came immediately after the State of Israel was declared on May 15, 1948, precipitating Israel's War of Independence.[/q]
And yes, that's from that Palestine Facts site. Doesn't sound all that biased to me.
Originally posted by Gank
Like I said, I dont put much faith in other peoples interpretations of them. Especially not in a book thats 2000 years old and been translated and retranslated repeatedly. Theres too much room for misinterpretation. Besides I regard the old testament and new testament as different religions, the gods in each are too far distant from each other, the old one is a ****** and the new one is a nice fella.
You'd rather me post the original Hebrew? Or do you have some other translation that "explains" the "true" meaning of those terribly mistranslated verses, since of COURSE they CAN'T be meaning that the Bible prophesied that the Jews would return.
And I can understand how you would think that the God of the Tanach is a God of anger and wrath, whereas the God of the New Covenant is a God of love and mercy. But that's an impression that - while not uncommon - can easily be disproved. Lookie here; this is from the Old Covenant / Tanach:
[q]Jeremiah 31
1 "At that time," declares the LORD , "I will be the God of all the clans of Israel, and they will be my people."
2 This is what the LORD says:
"The people who survive the sword
will find favor in the desert;
I will come to give rest to Israel."
3 The LORD appeared to us in the past, [1] saying:
"I have loved you with an everlasting love;
I have drawn you with loving-kindness.
4 I will build you up again
and you will be rebuilt, O Virgin Israel.
Again you will take up your tambourines
and go out to dance with the joyful.
5 Again you will plant vineyards
on the hills of Samaria;
the farmers will plant them
and enjoy their fruit.
6 There will be a day when watchmen cry out
on the hills of Ephraim,
'Come, let us go up to Zion,
to the LORD our God.' "
7 This is what the LORD says:
"Sing with joy for Jacob;
shout for the foremost of the nations.
Make your praises heard, and say,
'O LORD , save your people,
the remnant of Israel.'
8 See, I will bring them from the land of the north
and gather them from the ends of the earth.
Among them will be the blind and the lame,
expectant mothers and women in labor;
a great throng will return.
9 They will come with weeping;
they will pray as I bring them back.
I will lead them beside streams of water
on a level path where they will not stumble,
because I am Israel's father,
and Ephraim is my firstborn son.
10 "Hear the word of the LORD , O nations;
proclaim it in distant coastlands:
'He who scattered Israel will gather them
and will watch over his flock like a shepherd.'
11 For the LORD will ransom Jacob
and redeem them from the hand of those stronger than they.
12 They will come and shout for joy on the heights of Zion;
they will rejoice in the bounty of the LORD -
the grain, the new wine and the oil,
the young of the flocks and herds.
They will be like a well-watered garden,
and they will sorrow no more.
13 Then maidens will dance and be glad,
young men and old as well.
I will turn their mourning into gladness;
I will give them comfort and joy instead of sorrow.
14 I will satisfy the priests with abundance,
and my people will be filled with my bounty,"
declares the LORD . [/q]
And then you have things like this in the lovey-dovey New Covenant:
[q]Revelations 14:9-11
9 Then a third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives his mark on his forehead or on his hand, 10 he himself shall also drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out full strength into the cup of His indignation. He shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. 11 And the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever; and they have no rest day or night, who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name."[/q]
I sure wouldn't want to be on the receiving end of THAT.
Originally posted by Gank
Revelations 2:9 and 3:9
See, now this is why I love (and hate, at times
) these discussions - they make me
think.
Here's the quote from 3:9:
[q]Indeed I will make those of the synagogue of Satan, who say they are Jews and are not, but lie--indeed I will make them come and worship before your feet, and to know that I have loved you.[/q]
I don't know who it's referring to, but my first (wild, but reasonable) guess would be those Christians who are into Replacement Theology - the belief that, since the Jews killed Christ, they forfeit their Godly inheritance, which now passes onto the Church.
Though I'd certainly call that more of a deception than a belonging to the "synagogue of Satan". But on the other hand, Satan IS the great deceiver, so I guess it could fit just as well.
