[Ghostavo]

Splinter, does the wall become made of concrete around urban areas or is there some other reason why it alternates? In either case, they have a reason to complain... remember Berlin's wall?

[Turnsky]

Originally posted by Splinter


the media knows that people wont care so much about a friggen fence but when they see this vast wall they are appaled... tv stations get ratings by bringing out more emotion in peopel plain and simple the wall is part of the barrier as said before but a very small part. they choose to film that small part because it will evoke emotions. stupid media

the media is usually subjective, they blow /everything/ out of proportion to get people's attention.

[Rictor]

Yes, at times, its a fence. And at times, its this:


 

and here is a flash presentation that shows the route that the wall takes. Notice its relation to the Green Line.
http://gush-shalom.org/media/seperationmap_eng.swf

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, Suppose you could try compromise, remove part of the wall, and if any terrorist activities take place, you would all be perfectly justified in putting back up, though media wouldn't be able to taint your reputation? I know it put's peoples lives at risk, but then, to get peace, you have to take those risks sometimes

Why? Isn't the drastic reduction of successful suicide bombings since the security fence went up enough of an indication that the fence is doing its job?

[Rictor]

Since you're a supporter of the wall, tell me, why exactly is it necessary to cut into Palestinian land? nearly 50% of the West Bank is to be annexed, according to the statistics I've read. If this is a legitimate measure, and not a land grab, then why was it not built along the Green Line?

[Gloriano]

Well if that barrier Guards against terrorist attacks then it's good

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Why? Isn't the drastic reduction of successful suicide bombings since the security fence went up enough of an indication that the fence is doing its job?

At what cost is the fence to the ordinary Palestinian, though?


EDIT;

Col. (res.) Shaul Arieli, who was the last commander of the Gaza regional brigade of the IDF, says that the effectiveness of the barrier is only short-term. "The fence provides a partial security response to the terror threats and a good response to prevention of illegal immigration and prevention of criminal acts," he explains, "but on the other hand, in its current format it creates the future terror infrastructure because this terror infrastructure is precisely those people living in enclaves who will support acts of terror as the only possible tool that they perceive as being able to restore them the land, production sources and water wells taken from them." Arieli also said that the barrier is designed to induce the Arabs of the border region to leave so that Israel can expand. (Haaretz, February 18, 2004)

(from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier)

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by Rictor
Since you're a supporter of the wall, tell me, why exactly is it necessary to cut into Palestinian land? nearly 50% of the West Bank is to be annexed, according to the statistics I've read. If this is a legitimate measure, and not a land grab, then why was it not built along the Green Line?

Dude, I'm not a supporter of the security fence. In my (faith-based) opinion, Israel is dividing God's land.

Now, I can't think of a human solution to the problem that exists between Israel and the Palestinians. But I also don't understand why the heck Israel's being pressured to give up land she won during the 67 war - a war which no sane person can deny we were provoked and threatened into.

But I'm not the goverment, and I don't set policy. Why does the fence not follow the pre-67 border? I don't know. I could hazard some guesses, but I'd rather not provoke things further.

If you play with fire, you're gonna get burned:

• If you amass armies on the borders of a neighboring country, one that you attacked the very day it came into being, asking for a fight, then by golly, you're gonna get one. And don't come crying to mommy when you lose the fight you started, either.
• If you send out wave after wave of suicide bombers to blow enemy civillians up, and then hide amongst your own civillians, don't be surprised when not only do you not get what you want ("No negotiation with terrorists."), but your own people pay the price for the terror you cause, since you've so wisely made yourself inseperable from them.

If you play with fire, YOU. ARE. GOING. TO. GET. BURNED.

Hell, even children learn after they get burned the first time not to mess with fire. Why can't terrorists?

EDIT:

Originally posted by aldo_14


[q]Col. (res.) Shaul Arieli, who was the last commander of the Gaza regional brigade of the IDF, says that the effectiveness of the barrier is only short-term. "The fence provides a partial security response to the terror threats and a good response to prevention of illegal immigration and prevention of criminal acts," he explains, "but on the other hand, in its current format it creates the future terror infrastructure because this terror infrastructure is precisely those people living in enclaves who will support acts of terror as the only possible tool that they perceive as being able to restore them the land, production sources and water wells taken from them." Arieli also said that the barrier is designed to induce the Arabs of the border region to leave so that Israel can expand. (Haaretz, February 18, 2004)[/q]

(from  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israeli_West_Bank_barrier)

I agree 100%. And do you think that the Israeli government is outright stupid? No, of course not. They know this, which is why they have repeatedly said that the fence is temporary.

[Rictor]

Because playing with fire is what they percieve to be justice. Because Israel says "We have a right to have a country here" and they (they being Palestinians, but also Israel's enemies) say "Thats all well a good, but its not your land".

Might does not make right. Just because Israel has defended itself does not mean it that they are right. Similarly, if Israel was defeated in 1967, that would not make the other side right.

I can understand that your beliefs are founded in religion, but can you accept that religion is very, very subjective, and therefore makes for a terrible line of arguement when discussing interaction between nations and religions. If there is to be peace, both sides must base their actions on common sense and not religion. Because religion can't be argued, its a matter of faith. The solution must be a political one, because a religious one is almost impossible. Which means that neither side can use "God gave us this land, we are His chosen people" and similar arguements.

The IDF are as much terrorists to the Palestinians as suicide bombers are to Israelis. Neither side has a monopoly on suffering. So, saying that they are playing with fire by sending suicide bombers (which, "they" are not sending, it is individual organizations that are responsible) makes as much sense as saying you are playing with fire by killing civilians, hoardig the water, humiliating them, assassinating their leaders etc etc. I hope I'm getting the point across, I don't really know how much sense that makes to anyone but myself.

edit: heyyy, wierd. I was just reading that exact same paragraph on wikipedia a few hours ago.

[mitac]

A few weeks ago, I heard some interesting facts on the problem Israel vs. Palestine in the public international law lecture I'm attending this semester. Fact is : until the 1940's, the area around Jerusalem, including Jerusalem itself, was dominated by the Palestine people, while the Israeli were just a minority. Yet following the mass murders in Europe during the Nazi regime, and forced by some influential beings in the U.S., many, many (and I mean : MANY) jewish people, previously scattered all around the world, began immigrating into Palestine, which culminated in the founding of the state of Israel.

I guess that's a very important thing to recognize : imagine your home county is sort-of "invaded" over years, until you're the minority, and you just can sit and watch, because you have no means of stopping it. Wouldn't that result in "frustration", to say the least? And if this situation does not change over the years, but rather gets worse, wouldn't that result in pure hatred?

And here's a central aspect of the problem : the Israeli build the wall/fence to prevent terrorist attacks. The terrorist attacks occured to get revenge for military assaults on the Palestine people. These assaults again were revenge for previous terrorist attacks, and so on, until you get to the point that it all started with the events that lead to the founding of Israel. However, who can blame them for founding "their" state? They were there for thousands of years, it is their origin. But the same is true for the Palestinians. But by the means that were employed so far, from both sides, they cannot co-exist in peace, and probably never will.

A marriage simply doesn't work when it's arranged from the outside. At least in most cases. And once the beds are separated it's difficult to change that again.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by ionia23


Which it doesn't.  More to the point, it won't work.

Reported today on CNN:

US Approves the Isreali wall, however wants isreal to push it back a little bit compared to where they are now.

Sounds like support to me.

You isreali's didnt learn from the berlin wall? There are other solutions, more civil solutions but isreal is on such a war footing they wont even consider civil options.

Isreali's infringe on Palestinian lands and territory, palestinians bomb isrealis for doing so. Your both in the wrong, therefore neither deserves any support considering neither side is trying toi stop the war, only trying to aggravate it with this wall, or their patrols, or their suicide bombers.

World would be better off without any of them IMO. Its sad to see two cultures fight over land and territory in this day and age, but here they are, continuing a battle that is so old no one can remember how it really started anymore, and no one cares to know.

Maybe they will nuke each other, problem solved....

Its sad, but im sure im not the only one who thinks this way.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Flipside
Well, Suppose you could try compromise, remove part of the wall, and if any terrorist activities take place, you would all be perfectly justified in putting back up, though media wouldn't be able to taint your reputation? I know it put's peoples lives at risk, but then, to get peace, you have to take those risks sometimes

They don’t even need to try that. Because as I said before terrorist attacks are still occurring but the point is they are being stopped within the barrier. They are being blown up on the army. If we opened a part in the barrier now they would just take the bombers off the army and back onto the civilian populous... that would just be dumb on our parts.

[Gank]

The whole area was dominated by the palestinian people, in 1931 there were 1 million palestinians compared to 80,000+ jews. Important fact most people overlook when discussing the conflict.

[Splinter]

Originally posted by Lonestar


Reported today on CNN:

US Approves the Isreali wall, however wants isreal to push it back a little bit compared to where they are now.

Sounds like support to me.

You isreali's didnt learn from the berlin wall? There are other solutions, more civil solutions but isreal is on such a war footing they wont even consider civil options.

Isreali's infringe on Palestinian lands and territory, palestinians bomb isrealis for doing so. Your both in the wrong, therefore neither deserves any support considering neither side is trying toi stop the war, only trying to aggravate it with this wall, or their patrols, or their suicide bombers.

World would be better off without any of them IMO. Its sad to see two cultures fight over land and territory in this day and age, but here they are, continuing a battle that is so old no one can remember how it really started anymore, and no one cares to know.

Maybe they will nuke each other, problem solved....

Its sad, but im sure im not the only one who thinks this way.

So here we go just ignoring history and saying nothing has been tried before.... diplomacy? All that stuff... believe me they have tried so many of these things more then twice its not even funny. This is the first thing that has worked at stopping them since... well since almost 4 years... you tell me were being irrational to do this and you can get you family blown to hell if you like personally they brought it on themselves. They chose to start the violence and not continue with diplomacy... They chose death over life. And now it has gone on so long people have lost sight saying Israel never tried anything to help them never did this that the other... you obviously didn’t read my previous posts in this thread you would know we even armed and trained them for petes sake! Supplied them with stuff to build homes gave them jobs. You may say who are we to give them jobs in their own land? But you guys just don’t seem to be able to accept the fact that it is NOT their land anymore. They lost it. They fought to try and eradicate a people and in turn were conquered. I guess we should give all the land back let them set up their government continue to bomb us until they are big and strong enough to wipe us out completely.

After that we can give all of America back to the Indians... what say you? Who are you Americans to give Indians work on their own land... hell they didn’t even start the wars and here we have people giving Israel hell over defending itself in a war and winning.

I’m so sorry we won. Next time you attack we will try and be fair and let you slaughter us.  

Do you even hear yourselves?

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Sandwich


Dude, I'm not a supporter of the security fence. In my (faith-based) opinion, Israel is dividing God's land.

Remember - it's your 'Gods Word', not theirs.

 And if you start making decisions based on whose God is the valid one, then you end up with, well, the current situation.

NB: I would think it's evident that all the military attempts to resolve the Palestinian issue have failed miserably.  The term 'cycle of violence' is very apt.

Diplomacy may be a hard, painful road - but it's the only realistic way of a peaceful solution.  The problem is that it may take 10, 15 maybe more years.  But it's the only way - you just have to look at the world today to know that.   Even if Israel was able to seal off the Palestianian territories completely, there would still be attacks - on Jews / Israelis in other countries, or by foreigners coming into Israel 'legitametly', such as the British bomber.  

No-one (at least, no-one sane) is against Israels right to exist, their right to live free lives without fear.  But people don't want to see a state resorting to giant walls, house demolition and helicopter-gunship assassinations either, especially when that hurts innocent people.

[Sandwich]

Originally posted by aldo_14


Remember - it's your 'Gods Word', not theirs.

 And if you start making decisions based on whose God is the valid one, then you end up with, well, the current situation.

Oh, believe me, I'm quite aware of that. Which is why I only say that when I'm asked my opinion on how to resolve the problem.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

fences make good neighbours... remember that

[Gank]

Bull****

[Rictor]

He's right. Remeber Wilson from Home Improvement? He was a kick ass neighbor. :D

[Ghostavo]

Originally posted by Crazy_Ivan80
fences make good neighbours... remember that

Good fences make good neighbours...