[Bobboau]

yeah, it should

[Inquisitor]

perhaps then, reverting 12 months of work for an extinct video card series isn't necessary. Maybe there is some optimization that can be done?

[ChronoReverse]

Supposedly, if you don't use any of the flags and don't have any of the new files for the graphics and only the vanilla FS2 data, it should run in htl mode without the overhead.

[WMCoolmon]

You'll need the new subspace node files though, or else jump nodes won't show up.

Edit: depending on which build you use.

[Inquisitor]

Perhaps we could clarify this document wise?

[Svizel]

Yet another multiplayer pilot showing up...

I'm here to support idea of SCP backward compatibility with old non-HTL cards because i have many friends with older hardware who can't run SCP without serious problems. So far i don't have any problems with SCP myself and everything runs ok, but i'm multiplayer pilot and if i can't fly with my friends then for me there is no point in flying SCP multi at all.

[Bobboau]

it's not non-htl that's the problem, it's non-directx8 compatable cards, like voodoos, that is the problem with haveing a card from a dead manufactuer, they don't update there drivers.
voodoo cards also have some fairly signifigent limitations that would hold us back too much, for example voodoo cards don't suport cards of sizes greater than 256^2. and maintaneing suport for these cards would require technical things like texture sections wich caused all sorts of complications and slow downs in the texture system.

[WMCoolmon]

So in other words it might just be easier to compile the vanilla fs2 source with the new SEXPs/netcode?

[Cetanu]

not quite true Bobboau - 3dfx users learned to use 3rd party drivers quite some time ago and I have no troubles running other dx8 games which don't exactly rely on htl...

Now I have tested the SCP version with the original ships and textures only too, it should run perfectly like the old engine since none of the signifigent limitations should be met - but it doesn't. That's why I think the trouble is the new engine and/or htl.

[KARMA]

I have a voodoo too, a voodoo2, so I know what are you talking about.
the point is that you are requesting an fps friendly version. Well an fps friendly version should use the HTL engine for the simple reason that the HTL engine is at least 5-6 times faster than the original engine in rendering the same things, even on non htl cards(!!!).
What slow it down are all the various graphic features and the additional artwork.
The voodoo problem is another matter of question.
Making a non htl version would mean mainly to build a specific voodoo version which will be slower than a fps friendly version and useful for very very few people.
Also, this voodoo specific version would probably be not compatible with recent artwork (mods) so its utility would be very limited: it would be just a vanilla engine with support for advanced sexps+ some features.
You'd be able to play new missions but you'd not be able to play with recent mods, and since 99% of the new camps/missions use or will use at some degree new stuff, then you'd not be able to play and take benefits of the new sexps/features.
If we are talking here about an fps friendly version, then we are talking about an engine optimization and a button in the launcher that will revert automatically your configuration disabling all the new artwork (I mean the artwork which replace the original) and all the graphic effects but still using the HTL engine.
If you are a voodoo owner, to play all the new mods/stuff etc etc you'd have to change the gpu anyway (as I should do for example)
Nonetheless it could be interesting to add multiplayer support to a fs2 version which use the original engine with the main bug fixed and maybe new sexps, for those who want to just play the original fs2 again since afaik there isn't pxo support anymore.
But this should remain a secondary goal in my opinion, since main support should be given to mods

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by KARMA
...the point is that you are requesting an fps friendly version. Well an fps friendly version should use the HTL engine for the simple reason that the HTL engine is at least 5-6 times faster than the original engine in rendering the same things, even on non htl cards(!!!)...

Well, but right that doesn't happen: I get 1/3 to 1/4 of the framerate with the new builds compared to the old engine with the default vanilla FS2 files - and 5-6 frames/sec with loading stalls isn't exactly what I call 5-6 times faster then the original

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by WMCoolmon
So in other words it might just be easier to compile the vanilla fs2 source with the new SEXPs/netcode?

Compile it, I try/fly it ...

Originally posted by KARMA

Nonetheless it could be interesting to add multiplayer support to a fs2 version which use the original engine with the main bug fixed and maybe new sexps, for those who want to just play the original fs2 again since afaik there isn't pxo support anymore.
But this should remain a secondary goal in my opinion, since main support should be given to mods

Your last line is where our opinions differ - but that's o.k. seeing where we come from: single & multi

[kasperl]

I don't think I can be any help, not with only the first half of C++ for Dummies read. However, if someone get's this working, together with the Knoppix/LiveCD version, this'd be great. We could play FS on old systems, like school and 'net cafs. Think of the potential of the LAN in your computer lab.

[KARMA]

Originally posted by Cetanu


Well, but right that doesn't happen: I get 1/3 to 1/4 of the framerate with the new builds compared to the old engine with the default vanilla FS2 files - and 5-6 frames/sec with loading stalls isn't exactly what I call 5-6 times faster then the original

I made my own tests too, and with a matrox g200 12mb agp (not exactly a modern GPU, and a non HTL anyway) I had with the first HTL builds 4-5 times the fps I had with the non htl build of the same period (IIRC 3.5) which was already faster than the original engine, and I was testing stuff not optimized for HTL.
So as you can see the HTL can really give new life to older cards.
And I'm not saying that the future is in single player versus multiplayer, I'm saying that the future of single player AND multiplayer are the mods, and not the old vanilla fs2;)

[Svizel]

Emmm... just an opinion of old multi pilot. I liked it "as is" and don't want any mods (new missions yes, mods nope). The point of multiplayer is flying with friends, not flying diferent mods...

[Flipside]

Hmmm... This is a toughie....

It's a bit of both in my opinion. Playing with, or against friends is what multiplayer is about, I'll agree to that, but the whole idea of the SCP is to pull the Freespace 2 engine into a more modern environment, ships and all.

If this is cutting people out of the loop then yes, I fully agree something needs to be done, and it seems a lot of coders do too, but there will be compatibility issues, since I don't doubt a lot of new multiplayer experiences will contain mods. I suppose you can avoid that by only using games that are unmodded, but I think people would be missing out on a large percentage of the SCP if they did so.

Still, if it's a question of compatability in older graphics cards, my own opinon is that it 'might' be a good idea to be looking at a newer card, but it's easier to say than pay

I can see the need, but the ideals of the SCP is for pushing forward and expanding the capabilities of Freespace.

[Cetanu]

Originally posted by KARMA

I made my own tests too, and with a matrox g200 12mb agp (not exactly a modern GPU, and a non HTL anyway) I had with the first HTL builds 4-5 times the fps I had with the non htl build of the same period (IIRC 3.5) which was already faster than the original engine, and I was testing stuff not optimized for HTL.

Then I have to ask why it that doesn't work like that with the latest builds AND no additional VP files when I try to fly vanilla missions & ships & textures & tables & effects and no special effects turned on?

Originally posted by Flipside

I can see the need, but the ideals of the SCP is for pushing forward and expanding the capabilities of Freespace.

Expanding - yes, adding/building up on stable base - not cutting off the the broader base and go one way without looking back...  the later is a typical company move I thought an open source project would avoid...

[Goober5000]

Originally posted by Cetanu
the la[t]ter is a typical company move I thought an open source project would avoid...

um, we aren't doing it deliberately...

Until all the multi people started posting here, we thought everybody was just fine with the HTL upgrades and such.  Now that we hear otherwise, we're discussing whether and how to fix it.

[Cetanu]

well, I gave my vote when the question came up here - should the compatibility remain... guess I had bad luck with other voters... and most other multi-pilots never came here to the forums before: they usually played this game on PXO, so they are all a bit late now

but it works the other way round too: who knows me, who hasn't played multiplayer Fs2? I guess 1 hand is enough for counting...

edited: but that's actually not the topic I hope...

[Flipside]

LOL

It's good to see the multi-players turning up here though

If I know the SCP team, they will do everything they can to help you, they certainly have with everyone else