[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Lonestar


I disagree. Media is not just art. Its a blend of art, communication, and even subliminal messaging. Whether intentional or not. Media has far more power then art ever does, and its impressions are felt far more then some art picture..

I agree, that's true.

I've played Sldier Of Fortune (early version) when I was thirteen, and I've been watching horror/action movies with 18+ rating since I was nine.

In all that time, somehow I managed to avoid mauling and killing people. Their messages didn't quite reach me in the sense that I need to chop someone's head/leg off, and if I was able to repell them, then there are only few conclusions to be had from game related murder.

Kids have imbecile parents.
Kids are stupid/imbecile themselves.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lonestar


I disagree. Media is not just art. Its a blend of art, communication, and even subliminal messaging. Whether intentional or not. Media has far more power then art ever does, and its impressions are felt far more then some art picture.

Although games and movies and the like are all made with what society has been impressed with, it still cant be put into the art category.

Media needs to be held more accountable for the things it can impress upon people then it already has been. It affects our societies in ways we still dont understand and the fact people have to make ULTRA violent video games to put food on their table doesnt prove to me they are artsy in any way or truely trying to be productive in our societies.

Lets put it this way. In real life, i am not allowed to kill, or maim someone. However im allowed to do this in a video game, and im allowed to do so quite violently.

In real life im not allowed to be a terrorist to any country. In a game this is OK?

What about, in life im not allowed to rape someone. But in a game this is ok?

Seriously, why is it we condone violence, but do not condone other unrealisic actions in games? I understand their is "bad taste" and such, but really what harm can it do if im allowed to rape or be a terrorist in a game?

I wouldnt want there things, just so you know. Its only an example to show how far this can go if we continue to allow one thing, but be bias and not allow another form of art. Heck, right now if i say the word terrorist out loud someone is coming to my door to ask questions, let alone play a game about it! Why is it different for killing games? Makes no sense to me....


Before you think im against violence in gaming, think twice. Im merely exploring the other side of this argument because i truely want to understand both sides to gain some insight on this problem. Maybe violence in games is ok, maybe it isnt one thing we cant deny though is it is an issue and one that needs looking into.

People wouldn't buy a rape / terrorist game, though.  That'd be number one as to why no-one has considered it.

The other thing is that killing in videogames is always impersonal - you kill 'people' who you know don't exist, and there is no emotional impact as a result. There's rarely anything which works hard to convince you that you're not gunning down / running over / jumping on the head of a group of pixels.  

Rape, though, is probably the most deeply unpleasant and 'personal' crime possible.  It's basically a form of prolonged torture - something entirely different from the simple mouse flick and press button killing of 99% of games.  As such, maybe it should be accurately simulated - it would certainly let people know just how evil and despicable a crime it is.

The 'problem' with violence in games is not that it exists, but that it's hard to portray the consequences without stopping it being a game - i.e. there's plenty of wargames, but how many show the screaming agony of a dying soldier?  Such a consequence free environment could have an impact* on the less balanced youngsters - but that's exactly what we have age ratings for.  

And of course, there's the sister argument that violent games allow people to actually express violent emotions - i.e. to take out their rage, anger, etc (or just having had a bit of a ****ty day) upon an inaminate object rather than something in the real world.

*apparently, a study has shown that under-8s are indeed affected by what they see in games.  Personally, i'm not sure I'd allow an under 8 near a game -s urely they should be out playing or something?

Originally posted by diamondgeezer
I'm sure more people are killed or injured in alcohol-related attacks and accidents than video game-inspired violence. What are the chances of getting drink banned?

I mean, hell, America is outraged when a child kills his class mates with a gun - but more people die on the roads every day than are shot in school in a year. And yet which is considered more evil, the gun or the car?

Further proof that people are stupid

Well, when used correctly, alcohol is intended to get you drunk(tenous definition of correctly), and a car is intended to get you along the road from point A to B (er, not while drunk).  But when used correctly, a gun is intended to kill or maim.

Hence a gun is more evil than, well, anything beyond bigger weapons.

[Gloriano]

....when some parents learn that it's ****ing stupid go against game developers (it's not their fault that kid did have big mental proplem or was it because they want get money from Rockstar so they want blame game

anyway parent should watch what happening to their kid so it could prevent what happened in this case.....

[vyper]

[q]
People wouldn't buy a rape / terrorist game, though. That'd be number one as to why no-one has considered it. [/q]

Then explain the japanese/manga style games that came out allowing various sexual acts against a series of questionably aged women?

[Ford Prefect]

I would say that communication and subliminal messaging are part of the practice of art.

[Petrarch of the VBB]

Originally posted by vyper
[q]
People wouldn't buy a rape / terrorist game, though. That'd be number one as to why no-one has considered it. [/q]

Then explain the japanese/manga style games that came out allowing various sexual acts against a series of questionably aged women?

"Explain" and "Japanese" are two words that, when appearing in the same sentence, render that sentence useless.

[aldo_14]

Petition http://www.petitiononline.com/ylgame/petition.html

[Deepblue]

I personally think that there is MUCH better entertainment out there than ANY Rockstar games.

[01010]

Originally posted by Deepblue
I personally think that there is MUCH better entertainment out there than ANY Rockstar games.

Have you never played any of the GTA games?

Granted Rockstar have very little to do with them (other than publishing) and yes I know it's "Rockstar North" that develops them, but to me they will alway be DMA Design.

[varus]

Hmmm.  Video game player killing people with hammer.  Should my parents now be concerned that I recently purchased a replica 14th century warhammer? (of course it was back-ordered so I don't have it yet.   5 days left until the earliest time it could arrive)
--------------
I think that the blame wholy falls on the parents in this case.  

Obviously, as has been stated, the media does not do an accurate job of portraying the consequences/side effects of the actions.  (Another point for Freespace - the human cost is told somewhat.  "We lost a place many of us called home. We lost entire squadrons, the Colossus and most of our fleet. We lost so many friends that we celebrate our victory with grief and mourning."  "I'm goin down!  I'm goin down!"  "AAHHHH!")

But, the parents SHOULD control what their children are exposed to, and teach them what things are good for them, and what things are bad.  The mother had to leave the courtroom because it was too horrible for her?  Well, Mom, didn't you know what kind of games your kid was playing?  Yes, parents can go overboard and be too controlling, causing the kids to rebel, which is also bad.  But just letting the kids do whatever they want?  

Kids, especially younger ones, have no common sense.  It is the job and responsibility of the parents to impart wisdom and common sense to them.  When I was six years old, I decided it would be fine to walk across the frozen swimming pool in our back yard.  Smart thing?  No.  Would I still do it today? No.  Would I have tried it again if my parents had just told me, "You know, Mark, that wasn't a very smart thing to do" and left it at that?  possibly.  Instead, I got grounded for a week.  And, after establishing that walking across the swimming pool is something that leads to punishment, my parents explained to me why it was a bad thing.  

I had about a month's worth of lectures from my parents when I bought my first sword four or five years ago.  (Think I was 16 at the time, maybe 15).  They knew I wanted it, and let me get it, but made very sure I knew that going down the street chopping people's heads off with it was not a good idea.

Unless the parents give the children a good moral foundation, there's always going to be problems.  Proverbs 22:6 says it all - "Train up a child in the way he should go, and when he is old he will not depart from it."  I'd never heard of Manhunt before reading the article, and don't think I'll ever play it, because my parents made sure I wasn't exposed to violence much in my childhood, until I could understand the human costs and consequences involved.  I've no interest in bludgening people over the head with a hammer for fun.

And I'm willing to bet my life that if Warren's parents had paid attention to the types of activities in his life, and given him a moral foundation ten to fifteen years ago that he would not have committed this crime.  

Phillipians 4:8 - "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."
This would have solved the whole problem.

[Lonestar]

Ok it always seems to go back to being the parents fault. Why is this the case? Again i ask, why does society not take responsibility for its actions?

Why is it they cant just say, violent games cause a bad side-effect and just stop making them? Or maybe make them more realistic, so when you do something wrong your punished for it in game as well. Souring the gaming experience a little.

As for the Rape Argument, yes it is quite personal. Still doesnt make sense that i cant do it in a game but i can rip peoples legs and heads off. I can even run over old ladies and steal their money.
And we say Rockstar has no mental issues? The fact they condone killing, stealing, and maiming in their games doesnt prove to me they are a positive influence on anyone or even sane for that matter. They are simply USING violence to milk you of your dollars, in the end your sense of reality is somewhat warped and they are all millions richer. What exactly is the point of this? Entertainment?

Seriously, i appreciate games like Sonic the Hedgehog for its originality, and mario brothers and stuff like that. I dont need to play a game where im someone else, killing people for fun. The fact this game is out there, and promotes killing doesnt sit well with me. I know most human beings wont resort to what they see in entertainment, however those weak humans with small minds scare me a little bit considering the things we can do in games nowadays i can only imagine the kind of killers these games will breed.

We are a society of people who only cares aboutt aking bad things away when it affects the masses, when it affects a small percentage of people, it is ignored and ridiculed. Fact is there is a problem in the world, with these violent games and we as a society need to make it stop. We dont need violence for entertainment. We are above that. Violence in a Fantasy game isnt so bad, casting a fireball spell to kill an ogre doesnt fit well into reality, therefore these kind of fantasy games sit well with me. However im all for less violent game, for more creativity.

[Ford Prefect]

But the violence is what people naturally want. These games are not re-wiring anything in the human brain; they're playing on a very, very basic instinct, just like action movies and porn.

As for making a distinction between "graphic" and "fantasy" violence, I don't see the logic. It's all based on the desire to kill and destroy, and you could actually make a case for the more sanitized violence being worse, since it gives the impression that killing isn't really that ugly.

[diamondgeezer]

Originally posted by aldo_14
Well, when used correctly, alcohol is intended to get you drunk(tenous definition of correctly), and a car is intended to get you along the road from point A to B (er, not while drunk).  But when used correctly, a gun is intended to kill or maim.

Hence a gun is more evil than, well, anything beyond bigger weapons.

Depends on your approach. When used correctly, a gun doesn't hurt anyone - the idea is that the threat of its use stops you attacking me. I mean I could point a harmless empty gun or a replica at you, and you'd damn well dance if I told you to

The Royal Navy has a saying - 'a warship which returns from a tour having fired its guns in anger has failed in its task'

[Ford Prefect]

Well that's quite altruistic, but I think vengeance is an inevitable plague of human behavior.

[magatsu1]

the benefits of playing video games outweigh the problems. Problems only arise with excessive play, but that's only a small minority. Plus if it's not games it's Jackass or whatever.

Having said that, Edge magazine (in the UK) is the only games mag for adults and also was one of the few mags not to run GTA covers (most made with the assistance and blessing of Take2) Be interesting to see what Take2 had to say if accused with pimping an adult experience to minors.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by Lonestar
Ok it always seems to go back to being the parents fault. Why is this the case? Again i ask, why does society not take responsibility for its actions?

The issue of responsibility is addressed through the age ratings system.  In pretty much every case you see involving violent video games, the children who committed a violent crime were too young to legally buy the game.  That is clearly not the fault of games creator, it's the fault of the vendor.

Originally posted by Lonestar
Why is it they cant just say, violent games cause a bad side-effect and just stop making them? Or maybe make them more realistic, so when you do something wrong your punished for it in game as well. Souring the gaming experience a little.

Because it's not proven - AFAIK, the only scientific 'truth' is that violent games can affect children aged 8 and under.  Not to mention the obvious fact if someone buys a violent game, there is obviously some reason why they want to play it in the first place.... is it so out of the question that someone who is mentally predisposed to violence would actively seek out violent games, or indeed, any kind of media?  In that case, how can you blame the game for that persons predisposition - if anything, it gives them the chance to act out violent fantasies in a safe environment.  

Originally posted by Lonestar
As for the Rape Argument, yes it is quite personal. Still doesnt make sense that i cant do it in a game but i can rip peoples legs and heads off. I can even run over old ladies and steal their money.
And we say Rockstar has no mental issues? The fact they condone killing, stealing, and maiming in their games doesnt prove to me they are a positive influence on anyone or even sane for that matter. They are simply USING violence to milk you of your dollars, in the end your sense of reality is somewhat warped and they are all millions richer. What exactly is the point of this? Entertainment?

Well, yes actually.  I just checked my Vice City save game - I've played it for >100 and killed around 10,000 people .  Doesn't mean I'll go out  and run over someone - why?  Because I'm old enough to know better.

 Hence the age rating system - as we go through life, we develop a more 'tuned' way of understanding the world.  Our moral code becomes reinforced.  So the opportunity to wilfully disregard the rules of society and do whatever the hell you want - i.e. as in GTA - is well worth taking.

, for the specific issue of rape in games, it's obvious why you can't play a rape game - no sane person would want to - they'd prefer to play one which,er, 'simulated' consensual sex.

[castor]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
But the violence is what people naturally want

*scratches head with 5th leg*

These games are not re-wiring anything in the human brain; they're playing on a very, very basic instinct, just like action movies and porn.

This is a bit arguable point. I think our heads are being revired all the time - what varies is whether we are conscious of this happening or not.
Similarly, by making choices on what kind of content we bring into our lives, we can revire by our own will..

But how often it is completely conscious choice a kid makes when he starts to chop people up in a game?

Wasn't the choice based purely on the entertainment value of the game - not realizing the mind molding effect that comes as part of the deal (no even small print this time)?
 

As for making a distinction between "graphic" and "fantasy" violence, I don't see the logic. It's all based on the desire to kill and destroy, and you could actually make a case for the more sanitized violence being worse, since it gives the impression that killing isn't really that ugly.

But if you really (I mean really) realize how ugly it is, do you still want to see it? I don't think it is commonly realized, how ever graphic it may be.

[Ford Prefect]

All I know is, I detest violence in real life and have no use for the military mentality, but I love violent games.

[Kamikaze]

Originally posted by aldo_14

, for the specific issue of rape in games, it's obvious why you can't play a rape game - no sane person would want to - they'd prefer to play one which,er, 'simulated' consensual sex.

I suppose there's a whole market out there for insane gaming then.

[Knight Templar]

GTA3 led me into a false sense of security; that I could do whatever the hell I wanted as long as I ran over all the cops after me and hid for 5 minutes at the end of the day, and I wouldn't even have to worry about insurance.