Poll

What about it?

Uber Liberal!
3 (7.7%)
Liberal
3 (7.7%)
Centrist Liberal
9 (23.1%)
Centrist
2 (5.1%)
Centrist Conservative
1 (2.6%)
Conservative
7 (17.9%)
Uber Conservative!
5 (12.8%)
Anarchist (aka food storage)
2 (5.1%)
Vegetable
7 (17.9%)

Total Members Voted: 39

Voting closed: August 04, 2004, 06:37:01 pm

Author Topic: Political beliefs poll  (Read 6094 times)

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Offline Kamikaze

  • A Complacent Wind
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Why does it matter so much if they can think or not? I doubt a fetus can think "Oh no, I'm going to be killed! Help me!" or "I want to live!" more than a sperm can.
Science alone of all the subjects contains within itself the lesson of the danger of belief in the infallibility of the greatest teachers in the preceding generation . . .Learn from science that you must doubt the experts. As a matter of fact, I can also define science another way: Science is the belief in the ignorance of experts. - Richard Feynman

 

Offline Mr. Vega

  • Your Node Is Mine
  • 28
  • The ticket to the future is always blank
As for an embryo not being human, ok, I give you that.
Words ought to be a little wild, for they are the assaults of thoughts on the unthinking.
-John Maynard Keynes

 

Offline Ford Prefect

  • 8D
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  • Intelligent Dasein
I'm all for the abortion of people who use their cell phones during concerts. I've never seen people begging so hard to be aborted.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline moddy

  • Where's my Node?!
  • 22
Vegas, see it that way. There is an embryo, which might have the cognitive abilities of an ape or something around that point and then we have the mother. Usually, the mother will bring the unborn into the world, and if she can't take care of it, she can rely on giving it free for adoption.

In the cases, where we have abortion, there are special circumstances (normally), which put the mother in an enviroment, she cannot handle. Doctors will advise her on the situation, but she is dead set on abortion. You could call it evil, because you will destroy a life-in-potentia or you kill a being on level with an animal. Since there are no animal rights, that'd be not a really violation of anything.
Still, there is a potential life at hand, as you ascertain. But we are speaking of special circumstances and most likely the life of the women is threatened in one way or the other. Either by direct means that'd kill her or by means out of the social environment.

So, should the girl rather live unhappy, perhaps losing her life as it is, through the force of somebody else (those alleged thinkers of good), or should she take priority to her own life.
We can't judge whether the life is more precious than her life, because she hasn't done anything evil by being pregnant, so it is her choice alone to decide and I take it that they don't do a quick run on this.

So, the discussion is not on the level of intelligence and cognitive abilities of the unborn, because we can't truly determine it fully or the right of a life-in-potentia, because this would neglect and violate the rights of a life already in its full bloom.
Instead, we should rely on the reason and wisdom of a well-advised girl (via doctors amongst others) to find the right solution to the problem.
Thus it is a discussion of whether we give the woman the right to her life or not. I know that sounds hard, but I tend to trust women in this.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2004, 07:35:42 am by 756 »
3rd Rule: "Passion rules reason"
4th Rule: "Don't trust words for deeds betray a lie"
7th rule: "The only sovereign you should allow to rule you is reason."
8th Rule: "Truth lies in the Perception of facts."
9th Rule: "Deserve Victory.."

"In my restless dreams, I see that town
Silent Hill.
You promised you'd take me there again some day,
But you never did.

Well I'm alone now....
In our "special place"....
Waiting for you...."

"[15:25] im just the web and graphic designer
[15:26] and occasional rendered" <--- I always knew that Graphic designers are poor boys, but invisible.. uhhh

 

Offline Ford Prefect

  • 8D
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  • Intelligent Dasein
I whole-heartedly agree with that.

The other thing that infuriates me is the people who pass judgement on the woman because she's pregnant when she doesn't want to be. When you're on par with Jesus you can come back and preach about how she should live with her mistakes.

I'm also curious as to how many people here who are opposed to abortion are equally zealous in opposition to the death penalty.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

  

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
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most anti-abortionists are pro-death-penalty
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Offline karajorma

  • King Louie - Jungle VIP
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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
The other thing that infuriates me is the people who pass judgement on the woman because she's pregnant when she doesn't want to be.


The real irony is that if these people are so pro-life why are they usually so anti-contraception. Isn't it better that the life is never concieved at all rather than concieved and (In their opinion) killed?

If you thought that abortion was murder wouldn't you be willing to do a tiny thing like promoting contraception if that would reduce the death rate?

Bah. The whole thing is a bunch of circular logic that doesn't make sense to even a large percentage of christians (which is why protestants can use contraception and many catholics ignore the rules against using it).
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Offline Ford Prefect

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  • Intelligent Dasein
The idea is that women of true moral integrity should know better than to indulge in the corrupting pleasures of sex.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline aldo_14

  • Gunnery Control
  • 213
Quote
Originally posted by karajorma


The real irony is that if these people are so pro-life why are they usually so anti-contraception. Isn't it better that the life is never concieved at all rather than concieved and (In their opinion) killed?

If you thought that abortion was murder wouldn't you be willing to do a tiny thing like promoting contraception if that would reduce the death rate?

Bah. The whole thing is a bunch of circular logic that doesn't make sense to even a large percentage of christians (which is why protestants can use contraception and many catholics ignore the rules against using it).


(any excuse will do.......)

http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/mol/every-sp.mp3

DAD:
    There are Jews in the world.
    There are Buddhists.
    There are Hindus and Mormons, and then
    There are those that follow Mohammed, but
    I've never been one of them.
    I'm a Roman Catholic,
    And have been since before I was born,
    And the one thing they say about Catholics is:
    They'll take you as soon as you're warm.
    You don't have to be a six-footer.
    You don't have to have a great brain.
    You don't have to have any clothes on. You're
    A Catholic the moment Dad came,
    Because
    Every sperm is sacred.
    Every sperm is great.
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate.
CHILDREN:
    Every sperm is sacred.
    Every sperm is great.
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite irate.
GIRL:
    Let the heathen spill theirs
    On the dusty ground.
    God shall make them pay for
    Each sperm that can't be found.
CHILDREN:
    Every sperm is wanted.
    Every sperm is good.
    Every sperm is needed
    In your neighbourhood.
MUM:
    Hindu, Taoist, Mormon,
    Spill theirs just anywhere,
    But God loves those who treat their
    Semen with more care.
MEN:
    Every sperm is sacred.
    Every sperm is great.
WOMEN:
    If a sperm is wasted,...
CHILDREN:
    ...God get quite irate.
PRIEST:
    Every sperm is sacred.
BRIDE and GROOM:
    Every sperm is good.
NANNIES:
    Every sperm is needed...
CARDINALS:
    ...In your neighbourhood!
CHILDREN:
    Every sperm is useful.
    Every sperm is fine.
FUNERAL CORTEGE:
    God needs everybody's.
MOURNER #1:
    Mine!
MOURNER #2:
    And mine!
CORPSE:
    And mine!
NUN:
    Let the Pagan spill theirs
    O'er mountain, hill, and plain.
HOLY STATUES:
    God shall strike them down for
    Each sperm that's spilt in vain.
EVERYONE:
    Every sperm is sacred.
    Every sperm is good.
    Every sperm is needed
    In your neighbourhood.
    Every sperm is sacred.
    Every sperm is great.
    If a sperm is wasted,
    God gets quite iraaaaaate!

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
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Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
The idea is that women of true moral integrity should know better than to indulge in the corrupting pleasures of sex.


then there is always the "OMFG Sex is BAD!" morality being dead wrong and outdated
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Offline Ford Prefect

  • 8D
  • 26
  • Intelligent Dasein
It's not even outdated. Many conservatives seem to have this idea that in the past there was a time of purity and innocence, and that modern society has corrupted our morals, but this is a complete misconception. As I've mentioned before, one has only to look at ancient Greece to see that we have not cornered the market on indulgence.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline karajorma

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You don't even have to look back that far. How many servants ended up bearing the master's child?
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Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
  • 29
Well, this is where my conservative side kicks in a bit, and I remember a blurb from the introduction to Brave New World, written in the 50's.

Quote
Nor does the sexual promiscuity of Brave New World seem so very distant. There are already certain American cities in which the number of divorces is equal to the number of marriages. In a few years, no doubt, marriage licenses will be sold like dog licenses, good for a period of twelve moths, with no law against changinge dogs or keeping more than one animal at a time.


Though I'm not too conservative about it, I do see an increasing trend towards promiscuity, which I can potentially see, like all human traits, going too far. Now, whether people will have the common sense to appreciate the value of moderation (speaking for all characteristics) or whether the current trends, be they sexual, economic, cultural or whatever, will continue past the point when they become "too much of a good thing" is anyone's guess.
« Last Edit: August 06, 2004, 02:43:58 pm by 644 »

 

Offline Zarax

  • 210
Rictor, this is more related to the constantly decrease of maturity at all ages around than the real divorce issue...
The Best is Yet to Come

 

Offline Blaise Russel

  • Campaign King
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    • http://mysite.freeserve.com/sbre/index.html
Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
Though I'm not too conservative about it, I do see an increasing trend towards promiscuity, which I can potentially see, like all human traits, going too far.


What's wrong with promiscuity?

 

Offline Kazan

  • PCS2 Wizard
  • 212
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    • http://alliance.sourceforge.net
nothing so long as you be safe about it (use protection)
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Offline karajorma

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Quote
Originally posted by Blaise Russel
What's wrong with promiscuity?


There isn't enough of it from nubile females in my vicinity. ;7
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Offline Ace

  • Truth of Babel
  • 212
    • http://www.lordofrigel.com
Quote
Originally posted by Ford Prefect
The idea is that women of true moral integrity should know better than to indulge in the corrupting pleasures of sex.


This is typical, place the blame on women. What about men? Ohh nooo... it's those evil seductive women.

That's why 9 out of 10 fundies never get to share their genes, which is why the few who do have 9 kids. :p

Note: If you're too stupid to understand sarcasm or satire... I pitty you.
Ace
Self-plagiarism is style.
-Alfred Hitchcock

 

Offline Ford Prefect

  • 8D
  • 26
  • Intelligent Dasein
Precisely. I think that in the cases of many men, the condemnation of promiscuity is really nothing but a form of control.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel