[BlackDove]

If you could expand on that thought, I'd be grateful.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by BD
If you could expand on that thought, I'd be grateful.

Well lets give you a similar arguement. If the jews hadn't been so weak they wouldn't have gotten slaughtered by the nazis. So they didn't deserve a homeland in the first place.

See what a crap argument might makes right is?

[BlackDove]

Yes, that is a crap argument, and it doesn't have anything to do with what I've said. You've deviated.

[Flipside]

'Weakness' is defined by those around you, and when those around you deliberately keep you downtrodden, whilst themselves being bolstered from outside, you have no choice but to appear weak.

[BlackDove]

...and are therefore weak.

Facts are facts.

[Flipside]

Indeed, but in that case, the Kuwaitis, who were too weak to defend themselves from Saddam should rightfully be part of Iraq right now, after all, he invaded, they lost. Facts are Facts.

[Rictor]

So whoever is weak deserves to be oppressed, killed and generally pushed about? In that case, the Holocaust was just nature asserting itself, as were Stalin's purges, as was the Armenian massacre, the Indonesian one, Pol Pot, Rwanda and so forth.

Thats just stupid. We hjave laws so that it does not have to come down to who is stronger.

[karajorma]

Which was exactly the point I made.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Rictor
So whoever is weak deserves to be oppressed, killed and generally pushed about? In that case, the Holocaust was just nature asserting itself, as were Stalin's purges, as was the Armenian massacre, the Indonesian one, Pol Pot, Rwanda and so forth.

Thats just stupid. We hjave laws so that it does not have to come down to who is stronger.

No, whoever is weak does not _deserve_ it. It's just how nature is.

I'm sorry, but didn't you just contradict yourself? Your "laws" (which I obviously never heard about, since we do not have universal laws apart from the ones nature gives - governments and states are different) are obviously failing, considering how many atrocities have been commited. Stalin died of old age/natural causes, not because "laws" were implemented on him, and so on and so on.

See the reality clearly.

Originally posted by karajorma
Which was exactly the point I made.

No, you didn't make a point. You made jibberish. Rictor on the other hand, made my point.

[Ford Prefect]

Civilization is not nature. The establishment of a society requires that we behave contrary to many of our natural instincts. Murder, rape, theft, torture, bigotry; they're all part of how we want to behave, but we do our best to contain them for the purpose of maintaining our society, and society certainly does not end at national borders. You're absolutely right that the law of "might makes right" is how nature works, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to play out.

To quote an episode of Seinfeld, "We're trying to have a civilization here!"

[Rictor]

Its how nature works, but who ever said that whatever comes natural is right. For that matter, I disagree with your claims that it is human nature to commit murder, rape etc. I think its more pacifism and power-worship than anything else. This all depends heavily on the times and the circumstances, but an ordinary individual living a normal life would rarely, if ever, condone killing or oppression. People either support it out of fear or hatred", or do nothing to stop it.

Sure, most Americans supported the war in Iraq, but if you put a gun into their hand and put and Iraqi in front of them and told them to shoot, how many of them would do it? Thats why its important to not dehumanize and sterlize wars and attrocities. Show them the gory pictures, with the limbs missing and the blood and the dead children. Then we'll see how many support war.

Yes, nature works on the prinicpal of might makes right. But human morality does not, and it is the job of those who favour peace and freedom to make sure that morality is not relegated to the sidelines as it so often was in history. Its generally understood that it is "natural" to play by the law of the jungle, there's no need to repeat that. But what I'm much more interested in is whether you support that, or whether you support a more civilized, lawful, if you will - moral, approach.

[karajorma]

Originally posted by BD
Yes, that is a crap argument, and it doesn't have anything to do with what I've said. You've deviated.

It's called an analogy. Feel free to look the concept up in a dictionary if you don't understand the word.

[Flipside]

It's sort of like saying that the thousands of people who are dying in Ethiopia or the Sudan deserve what is coming to them because they are weak, when the whole world sits around and knows that what is happening there is wrong.

The killer is not strength or weakness on their part, it is self-centred Apathy on our own.

[Ford Prefect]

Sure, most Americans supported the war in Iraq, but if you put a gun into their hand and put and Iraqi in front of them and told them to shoot, how many of them would do it? Thats why its important to not dehumanize and sterlize wars and attrocities. Show them the gory pictures, with the limbs missing and the blood and the dead children. Then we'll see how many support war.

This is where age is a factor. All governments need the military to be a tool in their hands, so they rely on testosterone and youthful delusions of immortality to dehumanize the enemy. There's a reason they have to catch us when we're young; they need to get to us before we acquire enough common sense to tell the recruiters to go to hell.

Also, if you overdose on the graphic imagery, it can have the opposite effect. After a while, the brain adjusts to it and becomes desensitized. There's a reason that police officers can stand around murder scenes and basically munch on their breakfast without flinching.

[Flipside]

Well, I'm not out there, so I don't seek to judge either Israel or Palestine, but personally I think Pride and Stubborness has built a wall that will probably take years to be torn down between the two factions now

No peace plan created by an Israeli is going to be accepted by Palestine, no peace plan suggested by Palestine is going to accepted by Israel, and no peace plan suggested by anyone else is going to be accepted by either.

The UK has had wars with France and Spain and Germany and even the little countries inside the UK were at each others throats a lot of the time. Although we all get along, more or less, these days, I don't think that pride or stubborness ever ended, I just think some people got smart enough to rise above it.

[Ford Prefect]

I honestly don't think it makes sense to evaluate humanity as being "good" or "bad", we created those standards in the first place; we are what we are. But I do believe that there is a Nazi in all of us. Germany didn't suddenly decide to massacre the Jews because it's a country populated by bad people. Like always, a groups of people came along who knew better than most how easy it is to tap into the inertia of mass psychology. The German people were unhappy as it was; it was a matter of artful speaking and buzz words to turn the people against the Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals, trade unionists, etc. It wasn't because the population was evil; it was because once they had an objective in sight, they naturally chose to ignore what was being done, or convince themselves that it was for the better. And like I said, testosterone and youthful energy only helps. This is how large groups of people work. Once they're given a nudge by someone who can appeal to them, there is no limit to the atrocities that they will ignore, appease, or even commit. The only counteracting force is the individual mind, but the individual requires constant effort to exist.

[vyper]

[Q]But the thought of the UN enforceing something is simply laughable.[/Q]

Like all those resolutions your country ignored Sandwich... we don't enforce them because... oh that's right. The US vetos all of them to maintain your nation's relationship to them as a client state. There have been countless peace offers negotiated by arabs and jews alike throughout the 20th century and every one has been either ignored or derailed because of one of two attitudes:
1 - It doesn't suit US regional interests.
2 - Israel thinks it can get more in the long run by fighting.

This latest "peacemap" is quite frankly a joke - dismantle the only authority barely representing the Palestinian People? Turn Jordan into a Palestinian state? (I'd be a bit worried about seeing any bulldozers in my life again if I lived in Jordan right now.)

Your people were on the receiving end of this bull**** once before, you'd think you wouldn't put other people through it on some notion of a religious belief that is just as fanatical and as valid as Nazi based Fascism. Yes, you read that right - I'm saying you have no holy right to that land any more than the Arabs do or anyone else for that matter - and the over-zealous responses to Palestinian acts are no better than rounding up villagers and shooting them in mainland Europe for hiding Jews from the Death Heads.

As for you friends - I am sorry, and no-one should lose friends to war. However, if you want someone to blame or to ask why - don't look at the UN soldiers who would have been court martialled for acting, don't look at the UN for failing to get involved when it was YOUR MAIN ALLY who wouldn't let them, don't look at the Palestinians who are doing whatever they can to get out of the ghetto like cities they have right now (erm, sound familiar?)  - look at your own government before you question the actions of others.

You think this is about holy land anyway? It's not, it's about the upper classes of both our countries man - always exploiting people like us - giving us enemies to fear and to kill, and to blame everything on - and all the while making money and gaining power from our own suffering, pain, loss and sacrifice.

Learn from the past, or be doomed to repeat it's mistakes.


Hegemony is not survival.

Damn, I gotta sleep.

[BlackDove]

Originally posted by Ford Prefect
Civilization is not nature. The establishment of a society requires that we behave contrary to many of our natural instincts. Murder, rape, theft, torture, bigotry; they're all part of how we want to behave, but we do our best to contain them for the purpose of maintaining our society, and society certainly does not end at national borders. You're absolutely right that the law of "might makes right" is how nature works, but that doesn't mean it should be allowed to play out.

To quote an episode of Seinfeld, "We're trying to have a civilization here!"

Yes that's true probably. At least it is my belief that there would be tons and tons of murderors, rapists, thieves, torturers and bigots if there weren't any reprecussions. The reason most of us are safe today since our childhood, is because of that (well....some of us anyway).

However, I can also quote you how civilization itself sucks in many ways. Maxim gun for one thing, and the start of "Europe goes to Africa for the first time" movie everyone knows about. Colonialism, Imperialism, hell even Fascism, and all those nice ideas, are all ideas strung from civil minds. Because it is "civil" to shoot someone in the head from afar, instead of fighing equally like some.....ANIMAL. It was civil to work a black man to death as a slave. All of those were civil things. You live and you learn, but civility today is shaky at best when it comes to idealism.

Originally posted by karajorma


It's called an analogy. Feel free to look the concept up in a dictionary if you don't understand the word.

Thank you oh mighty interperter. Sorry that I can't direct you to a  dictionary or any similar type of media, since they will not tell you that your "analogy" sucks and is incorrect. I however will. You should thank me.

Originally posted by Flipside
It's sort of like saying that the thousands of people who are dying in Ethiopia or the Sudan deserve what is coming to them because they are weak, when the whole world sits around and knows that what is happening there is wrong.

Yes, it's like saying that. Now I'm not too happy about all those people there dying, and yes, it's not a baby's fault that they're born with AIDS or that they are opressed since they were born, but the fact is that when it comes to disease - it's the parent's fault for not being knowledgable, and when it comes to opression, it's not a monster from hell that's doing the opression, it's just a regular guy with power where he can utilise his ideas (usually puppets of people with money - these are basic facts anyway).

Doesn't make it right, but it doesn't make it all that "mistifying" or strange or even unbelievable either. After all, nobody is a saint.


Coming back to my original point - yeah, if you're weak, chances are high you will be dominated. Who's to judge the guy who does the dominating? Other powerful people. And no-one else.

So back to topic - and my idea consequently. To reiterate.

Palestinians do not deserve their land because they lost. They are losing. The only thing that stands in the wake of complete and total annihilation from Israel's side is the fact that the eyes of the world are on that conflict, and you can't be a brute barbarian decimating another race/country/people/whatever.

However - I doubt it very much that Israeli's would be supported in going back to that land _in the first place_, if they stated "Okay, we need a place to live, Germans didn't do us good, and foreign countries probably won't as well, off you go Palestinians because I'm stronger." - it's much better to say "It was mine to begin with, you are the bad person, give me back."

That is why the statement is inane, insane and ludicrous.

In any case - my solution = water. Bye, bye piece of land. For a war that has lasted this much, and where there is still no end in sight, both nations/countries/whatever should just simply be made to walk away. The most peaceful solution.

[vyper]

[q]Palestinians do not deserve their land because they lost.[/q]

****ing. Hell. You. Nazi.

[Ford Prefect]

However, I can also quote you how civilization itself sucks in many ways. Maxim gun for one thing, and the start of "Europe goes to Africa for the first time" movie everyone knows about. Colonialism, Imperialism, hell even Fascism, and all those nice ideas, are all ideas strung from civil minds. Because it is "civil" to shoot someone in the head from afar, instead of fighing equally like some.....ANIMAL. It was civil to work a black man to death as a slave. All of those were civil things. You live and you learn, but civility today is shaky at best when it comes to idealism.

There are no civil minds and uncivil minds, there are only human minds. The idea of civilization is by definition perfect;  its goal is to counteract the destructive aspects of human nature, and all of human history has been our endless attempt to reach that goal. Wherever you see some atrocity committed, that is not civilization; it is the absence of civilization; it is primal nature winning out against society. If society did not exist, there would be no such thing as "good" and "evil." This is what humans are: Beings torn right down the middle between our instincts and our idea of perfection.