Author Topic: What if the Americans behaived Rationally towards 9/11  (Read 5850 times)

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Offline Vaelinx

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside


Free? Free to do what? To hide in their houses and hope an artillery shell doesn't turn them into a statistic?

Trust me, from a Middle Eastern point of view, you could say that the Whitehouse has already killed far more people to achieve it's political goals than the Terrorists have.


:wtf: What Middle Eastern country has the Whitehouse invaded to furthur it's political goals before 9/11?  I know of one: Kuwait.  You don't hear them complaining...

Any others?  I'm waiting...  Seriously, I can't find any, but I keep feeling I should find some.  I seriously want to know what we did to Mid Eastern countries for them to cheer and dance in the street when thousands of our civilians and guests were murdered.

You'd stand a better chance arguing economic motives than political ones.  Because aside of our support of Israel (which is something worth criticism IMHO), I think Mid Eastern leaders have been using the US and the UN far more than the other way around.  


BTW:  I doubt anyone but Islamic extremists will criticize the US defending the Jews from another genocide in Israel.  And we did make them give back that big 'ole pennensula...
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Offline magatsu1

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
You know not long after the Taliban kicked out the Red Army from Afghanistan, the Taliban Leaders flew to Texas (when George Bush was senator) to meet with Unocal execs, a big US energy corp; in a plan to pipe natural gas from the Caspian Sea (Turkmenistan) through to Turkey in a deal worth millions, if not billions. Once the nature of the Taliban was fully revealed the Us Admin. backed off a little but not the big corporations.

But then Osama blew up a couple of US Embassies in Africa and America responded with Air Strikes and all the Big Corps. took the hint and pulled out leaving the Taliban out of millions/billions dollars.

Point is, the problem with The West and espscially America is ther're happy to support dictators if said dictators are happy to pander to the West's needs.

The exact same thing is happening in China right now. That's why so many people hate America.
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Offline aldo_14

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
To the casual observer, it would seem that the US only brings 'freedom' (or rather, 'regime change') to countries that oppose the US.

 

Offline Rictor

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by Vaelinx


:wtf: What Middle Eastern country has the Whitehouse invaded to furthur it's political goals before 9/11?  I know of one: Kuwait.  You don't hear them complaining...

Any others?  I'm waiting...  Seriously, I can't find any, but I keep feeling I should find some.  I seriously want to know what we did to Mid Eastern countries for them to cheer and dance in the street when thousands of our civilians and guests were murdered.

You'd stand a better chance arguing economic motives than political ones.  Because aside of our support of Israel (which is something worth criticism IMHO), I think Mid Eastern leaders have been using the US and the UN far more than the other way around.  


BTW:  I doubt anyone but Islamic extremists will criticize the US defending the Jews from another genocide in Israel.  And we did make them give back that big 'ole pennensula...


First of all, no one is talking about a second Holocaust or whatever. Jesus, the Arabs didn't have anything to do with it the first time around, what the hell do they have to do with it?

What I (and others) are talking about is forcing Israel to negotiate and behave itself. If they have Uncle Sam at their back, they are free to do things that no other nations would be. They can just have it their way all the time, and keep using force to get what they want, cause they've got a big brother thats gonna kick your ass if you don't do as they say.

What harm has the US done in the Middle East? Well, the Shah for one. Then the Iraq-Iran war. Then arming extremist assholes in Afghanistan and not doing a damn thing to clean up their mess. Then Desert Storm. Then the 12 years of bombing and sanctions in Iraq. Giving cover for Israel to occupy foreign lands, including the West Bank, Gaza and Golan Heights. Also, the financial and political support for the Saudi royals. Afghanistan 2001 and Iraq 2003. Moving further north, we have a coup in Georgia and support for a tyrant in Uzbekistan.

sounds like plenty to me.

 

Offline Flipside

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
The economic motives are, to a large extent, what has lead to a great deal of poverty and death in the Middle East.

From a Middle Eastern point of view, not only has America funded revolutionary armies which have killed a large number of innocent non-combatants with American funded weapons, but also, trade policies have meant that many suffer so that the few can pay less.

I'm not saying that it is the US's fault alone, many of these things could not of happened without the complicity of those in power in these countries, but it is not those in power that you are dealing with here, it is the blowback from the combined greed of both American and Middle Eastern commerce, added to the fact that the US was used, rightly or wrongly, as a scapegoat by many Middle Eastern leaders for their own atrocious spending regimes.

In attacking in the manner he did, and by handing out 'Freebies' to his favourite corporations etc, Bush managed to make America look exactly as they had been described to the Arab world by their leaders.

This is as much a media war as it is a political, social and military one. America was not only attacked, but humiliated in front of the World Stage, they were egged on into Afghanistan (We have him, no we dont, Bin Who? Oh, he just popped out for milk) and, for the main part, have been led around by their noses ever since.

As long as America remains closed, defensive and directly agressive to anyone who questions their motives, they will continue to isolate and demonise themselves to the rest of the world. A more tempered approach is needed.

 

Offline Mongoose

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Wait Rictor, so liberating the nation that Saddam invaded, sanctioning said Saddam, a known psychopath and mass murderer, defending Israel's right to exist and occupy its sovereign lands, taking out the ultra-oppressive Taliban and most of Al-Qaeda's infrastructure, and removing the already-mentioned Saddam from powere are all mistakes?  I don't know what crazy logic you're using, but to me, those all sound like good deeds.

 

Offline ionia23

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
It's called "liberalism".
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Offline Flipside

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Well, if Israel simply occupied it's sovereign lands, that wouldn't be the problem, the argument has always been about the West Bank and the Gaza strip.

Both of these were originally Palestinian lands, particuarly the West Bank, which contains some of small amount of arable land available to the Palestinians. Israel invaded these lands, and are allowing settlers to build homes there, whilst pushing out Palestinians.

The problem is not only that occupying these lands is against an agreement that Israel signed after the War, but without this land, Palestinians are losing a large amount of their food-growing land.

Now, Israel has grown far faster than was predicted, and I suspect that is where the problem will arise. Israel needs that land as much as Palestine does. And both sides are too wrapped in their their hatred and mistrust of each other to talk about it like adults :(

As for the sanctions against Saddam, they hardly effected the man himself, most of the fallout from that landed on his people, which was then blamed on America by Saddam. Those sanctions are part of the reason the US is having such a hard time in Iraq right now :(

The Taliban are still around, you just don't hear about them, using exactly the same tactics as the Iraqi insurgents, have been for years. In fact, the Red Cross recently pulled out of Afghinstan because they were tired of being attacked by Taliban.

Al Quaida is an obsession with America, the tip of the boil as it were, is Bin Laden, but if you 'lance' him, you will find out just how much more is underneath. Sorry for the analogy, but it seems apt.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 03:28:08 pm by 394 »

 

Offline Vaelinx

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by magatsu1
You know not long after the Taliban kicked out the Red Army from Afghanistan, the Taliban Leaders flew to Texas (when George Bush was senator) to meet with Unocal execs, a big US energy corp; in a plan to pipe natural gas from the Caspian Sea (Turkmenistan) through to Turkey in a deal worth millions, if not billions. Once the nature of the Taliban was fully revealed the Us Admin. backed off a little but not the big corporations.

But then Osama blew up a couple of US Embassies in Africa and America responded with Air Strikes and all the Big Corps. took the hint and pulled out leaving the Taliban out of millions/billions dollars.

Point is, the problem with The West and espscially America is ther're happy to support dictators if said dictators are happy to pander to the West's needs.

The exact same thing is happening in China right now. That's why so many people hate America.


I thought that went to an Argentinian company? ;)

Yeah, and France and Russia were taking Iraqi oil to pay for Saddam's military.  France is even now trying to work deals with Iran...  While conducting war games with China off the coast of Taiwan...

Greed is a great motivator.  And perhaps the best reason for the Mid East to hate the West.  Because we need their oil, and we pay for it, but their greedy leaders and dictators and royalty see most of the benefit.

So we should stop using oil.  But if we do, then the people may starve... as well as our own...  But we can't just *give* them money (well, any more than we already do eh?) and support the dictator directly...  So do we invade?  But then the extremists try to sew unrest within the factions and kill even more innocents...  Tough one...  What's the right thing to do?  It seems the UN likes Mid East dictators even more than the US does...

Maybe we should them a favor and TAKE their oil?  No... that would be worse than supporting genocidal dictators...  that would be stealing... ;)
If there was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted it myself until I met a computer with sense of humor.

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Offline vyper

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Vaelinx, I suggest you read up on Indo-Chinese history before you say the US hasn't influenced other nations militarily for thier own gain.
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Offline ionia23

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Vyper's right.  We have.  There was some kind of anti-communist insanty going on in our various administrations between the end of WWII and the Carter administration that resulted in the mucking up of many nations, particular in the south pacific and South America.  It's freaky.

A number of people haven't forgotten that.
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Offline aldo_14

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by Vaelinx


I thought that went to an Argentinian company? ;)

 


American comapnies were falling overthemselves left, right and centre to woo the Taliban to allow them to build a pipeline through Afghanistan, until the political situation became untenable.  Therw ould, of course, be other parties 'bidding' for this.  I believe part of the desire for this was in trying to avoid going through Iran.

I remember this vaguely,  from this book ( http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0330492217/qid=1093901247/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl/026-0251139-5187663 ), but I don't have the exact details of it handy.

I believe the Us has/had negatively influenced governments covertly in many countries to 'fight' communism... Chile, Iran, Brazil, etc are examples IIRC (to varying degrees)... either through effective puppet governments or more subtle manipulation.

It interesting to consider that, had the Spanish civil war taken place in the 50s and not the 30s, then the Americans would probably have supported Francos side.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2004, 04:33:13 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Vaelinx

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Vaelinx, I suggest you read up on Indo-Chinese history before you say the US hasn't influenced other nations militarily for thier own gain.


Whoa Nellie!  I thought we were talking mid east?

There are plenty of FUBAR things that went on in SE Asia that the US military was smack in the middle of.  I'm not trying to deflect the blame, but there were others there as well... like China, and USSR, and France...  And we actually have some strong allies as a result (oddly enough)...  Not to mention strong enemies...  that we pay monies to...  so that they won't use their military influece... anyway...  :(

As a US citizen, I cannot fix those mistakes, but I can hold my leaders responsible to not repeate them.  We need to wait and see with Iraq... will they form a strong and valid government?  I hope so...

Economic and Military influence are wielded by countries left and right, hand in hand...  Economic is preferred of course...  But sometimes you just don't want to make any more bad deals with an oppressive dictator while his people starve (and a happy and fed people will make better deals).
If there was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted it myself until I met a computer with sense of humor.

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Offline vyper

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
[q] but I can hold my leaders responsible to not repeate them[/q]

Unfortunately your leaders seek hegemony, not the survival of your people.

Just wait... there'll be a "nice" war with someone like the chinese in about 10 years to balance things out again.
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Offline ionia23

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by vyper
Unfortunately your leaders seek hegemony, not the survival of your people.

Just wait... there'll be a "nice" war with someone like the chinese in about 10 years to balance things out again.


Friend, if we go to war with china, the balance you speak of will be on the side of...cockroaches.

That's one subject I won't even debate about.  If russia/china/US go to full scale war in any combination, politics won't mean jack ****.  That's humanity rendered as a minor species, maybe even an extinct one.
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Offline Flipside

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Hmmmmmmm.... Well it seems to me that dividing 'Economic' and 'Political' motives into 2 seperate entities is not entirely true. One is very much reflected in the other.

 

Offline Vaelinx

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by Flipside
Hmmmmmmm.... Well it seems to me that dividing 'Economic' and 'Political' motives into 2 seperate entities is not entirely true. One is very much reflected in the other.


I agree.
But it is possible, as is the case with American companies trying to work with the Taliban, that a corporation may act independently of a governement.  They risk losing thier investment.  But sometimes even a small economic link between countries can do wonders for smoothing over foreign policy...  ie: France and Russia with Iraq even after Saddam gave the UN the big ole finger.  Check Cheap oil for WMD's.  Our world's dependance on oil seems to be the root of a very large number of problems...  And none of those fuel cell guys can seem to do their math right... we never seem to win on the deal. :(
If there was one thing all people took for granted, was conviction that if you feed honest figures into a computer, honest figures come out. Never doubted it myself until I met a computer with sense of humor.

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Offline Grey Wolf

What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Reflected? They're not reflected. Politics and economics are just different parts of the same game.

And Mongoose, kicking Saddam out doesn't make up for having backed him in the first place, not to mention the horrible job we did at kicking him out.
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Offline Flipside

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Not on every occasion, business interests have been known to wander away from political interests if the price is right, however, political interests tend to rarely stray from economical ones.

It makes you wonder which is the more influencial in a capitalist society ;)

 

Offline Sandwich

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What if the American's behaived Rationally towards 9/11
Quote
Originally posted by Max Sterling
I think the premise the author makes is a bit ridiculous.

The only comparison is that people died. That's it.

What is under attack here, besides our people, is our entire way of life. The terrorists (read Osama's statement of why he attacked us) hate us and all we stand for. They hate our ablity to be free, to make choices, to not choose their way. They hate that because our freedom is so powerful, some of their own people choose it. The purposeful, direct attack to kill our people was carried out with the intent to frighten, to damage, and take away our freedom. This has no comparison to car accidents. Even before there was the automobile, people died in accidents. There always have been and always will be accidents.

Our response to terrorism is appropriate. The author of the article makes the riduculous conclusion that our reaction only makes things worse. How else could we respond? Of course we took action to prevent it happening again. This is only logical.

The fact is, they already hated us, and already attacked us. Our defending ourselves does in no way make it worse. If we weakly let it happen, let them control us, they would only do it again and again, because they hate our freedom and want to take it.

For some reason, authors like this tend to forget who is the problem here -- the terrorists. They are the ones to blame for this, no one else. They intentionally killed people out of murderous desire. I dare say that this is wrong. I say their idea of killing people and inspiring terror as a way of spreading their agenda is wrong. I also say that there is no reasoning with these kind of ruthless killers. They must be met with force, to defend the very freedom we have as a nation.


Hear hear! Max for prez! ;)

There are 3 responses to terrorism:
[list=1]
  • Public fright, defensive security measures taken for the appearance of public saftey (they don't do anything to seriously hinder above-amatuer terrorists).
  • Public fright, defensive security measures taken, as well as offensive "you're not gonna get away with this" measures. Terrorists don't cause terror for the fun of it - they have a goal, and are very driven to achieve that goal by any means. If terrorism accomplishes or brings them closer to accomplishing said goal, then they will use terror.
  • Act, as the article states, "rationally". Take the attacks in stride, ignore anything beyond the immediate issues, etc. This is not that bad of a "solution", truth be told.


Similarly to the bully at school situation - if he enjoys your reaction to getting called names, you can run in tears to teacher, you can suck it up, even while crying, and punch the bastard in the face, or you can completely ignore him and not allow him the reactions he's looking for.

On a semi-related note, I just got a news flash as I was writing this post that there are at least 12 dead so far in a double bus bombing in Be'er Sheva a few minutes ago. Israelis' reactions usually are a combo of options 2 and 3 - go about your business, and let the IDF punch "them" in the face.
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