Author Topic: Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions  (Read 3842 times)

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Offline Sesquipedalian

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Lord Of The Rings - Misc Questions
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Originally posted by Mongoose
I'm aware that the literary "elite" really despise The Lord of the Rings; they deride Tolkien's writing style and claim that his work is escapist trash.  
Actually, not so much.  The literary elite of his own day did so, but not so anymore.  Ther is plenty of serious secondary literature to be found on Tolkein these days.
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Offline Sesquipedalian

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Originally posted by an0n
No, Sauron never got his grubby mitts on them, so he couldn't do the evil-mojo thing to them.
Or more accurately, they were made without any of his help, or even his knowledge.  As a result, even when he made and put on his One Ring, he was not quite able to live up to his haughty inscription on the the Ring: he might be able to find them and strive against the will of someone wearing one of the Three, but he could not rule them like the Seven and the Nine.   Of course, "in the darkness bind them" would eventually have overcome that small annoyance...
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Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by Sesquipedalian
Actually, not so much.  The literary elite of his own day did so, but not so anymore.  Ther is plenty of serious secondary literature to be found on Tolkein these days.


There is still a lot of it going on actually. I remember seeing someone from the literati on TV making fun of Lord of the Rings and saying how it was only for engineering students named Nigel. Of course as her rant continued it became obvious that she

1) Hated all sci-fi and fantasy
2) Had never read the book in the first place.

Good thing I wasn't in the audience or I would have slapped her. :)

That said after the you can't get away with that sort of crap anymore. Loads of people have seen the movies and loved them and everyone knows that the book is always better than the movie based on it ;)
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Offline Grug

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Indeed.
A movie being based on a book is one thing. But a successfull movie based on a book (or a trilogy in this case) is like a seal of greatness.
Tolkien has definitly left his mark on the world...

Can you do the same?


... hehehe, sorry had to say that. :D

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Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by Grug
Tolkien has definitly left his mark on the world...

Can you do the same?


*Warms up orbital laser platform*

Since you ask..... :D

I agree though. It's a pity there is so much fantasy that just clones his work though. It does have the effect of dragging down his work for the general public.
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Offline Mongoose

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Grug, Gimli's son didn't travel overseas, at least to any of my knowledge.  However, in the appendices of Return of the King, it does mention that, after Aragorn's death in F.A. 120, Legolas built a ship and sailed into the West, and Gimli supposedly went with him.  Tolkien said that Galadriel was able to obtain this grace for him from the Valar, because of his great love for her.  Also, Elrond and Arwen didn't part on "bitter" terms, per se.  The description may use that word, but the meaning was in the way of extreme sorrow rather than anger or resentment.  Elrond and Arwen would never see each other again; as a mortal, she was destined to leave the circles of Middle-Earth, as opposed to the normal fate of the Elves (after death, they are sent to the halls of Mandos in Valinor, and eventually they are able to walk freely again in Valinor.)  I did forget to mention the appendices in my post, but they should be required reading for anyone who finishes the trilogy; it's very easy, since they're at the end of the third book :p.

I guess I can counter these questions with a question of my own:  was the Glorfindel of Fellowship of the Ring the same as the one who was killed by and killed a Balrog in The Silmarillion?  Tolkien mentions that he has been in the Blessed Realm, which gives him the aura of light and power that he displayed against the Nazgul at the fords.  Since the Elves never truly die, instead eventually coming back in some form, I think that this is the same one, although I am not sure.

Another think I love about Tolkien's works is that there are certain details that are never revealed but which leave the reader guessing.  One is the dark creatures living at the "foundations of the earth" under Moria.  Gandalf says that he "will not darken the light of day" by telling about them.  I'm disappointed that the movies did not include some of this; it would have been extremely creepy if done right.   Another is the door in the Paths of the Dead in front of which Brego, the son of a Rohirrim king, died.  We never learn what that door was or why he wanted to get through it.

One thing I did like about the movies is how they got the scenery and appearance of Middle-Earth right.  They actually brought in acclaimed Tolkien artists Alan Lee and John Howe to help with concept art.  I have a calendar featuring some of John Howe's paintings, and scenes like the Argonath, Rivendell, and Minas Tirith are almost identical to the models used in the movies.  The one time during the movies that I really got choked up was when the Rohirrim arrived at the Pelennor Fields and charged down at the forces of Mordor.  This was one of my favorite scenes from the books, and seeing it portrayed that way on the big screen, with the heroic music playing in the background, sent chills up my spine :).

I can say that I truly disliked only two or three things about the movies.  One was the way that they changed Faramir's character.  He was supposed to be a contrast to Boromir and reject the lure of the Ring, but he ends up trying to capture it.  I almost think the whole scene was done as an excuse to show Osgiliath, which I will admit did look cool.  Another was how Gollum turned Frodo against Sam; they were supposed to have the ultimate friendship and trust, and then Frodo suspects Sam of stealing food?  I don't think so.  The final, and biggest, mistake, in my opinion, was the scene at the actual end of the Third Age, when Sauron falls.  An exploding eyeball just wasn't right :p.  In another Tolkien calendar I have, there's a painting showing this scene as it was written, with an immense shadowy figure wreathed in lightning rising out of the ruin of Barad-dur and stretching its fist out at the opposing armies.  That, to me, would have been the ultimate climaxic scene.  Having said this, though, I think Peter Jackson did an amazing job, with dead-on casting and amazing special effects.  I don't think any other conversion of the books could have been better :D.

 

Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by Mongoose
Another was how Gollum turned Frodo against Sam; they were supposed to have the ultimate friendship and trust, and then Frodo suspects Sam of stealing food?  I don't think so.


That was supposed to represent every snarling comment Frodo makes about the ring as they travel across Mordor. Lacking the time to make all the comments and show how Gollum splits Sam from Frodo in Shelob's lair they did it this way.
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Offline Mongoose

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The thing was, every time Frodo made one of those comments to Sam in the book, he immediately repented of it.  It didn't really have a big impact on their friendship.  The way it was done in the movie seemed somewhat forced and implausible, at least in my opinion.

 

Offline Grug

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Indeed.
I'm just reading through the appendices now to refresh my memory.

There doesn't seem to be any mention of Gimli's son, but I could of sworn I heard something about that somewhere...

As for Glorfindel, Tolkien seems to use many repeats of character names, but I'm not sure on this because I havn't read the Silmirilian yet. I've only skimmed through a few parts, and had a few highlighted by a friend of mine.

Not sure from which book, but I recall a battle which had 300 balrogs, Dragons, army of Dwarves, men and elves.
I'm pretty sure that was when Melkor was still around...

Yeah, some of the ways some of the characters were portrayed were a bit off, (I don't recall DenethorII being that crazy :p ) but they have to be forgiven for trying to fit it all into a movie timeframe...

I have to agree completly with the favourite part of the movie being when the Eorlingas charge. They are probably my favourite people.
It would of been better had Pelennor been the same as the book though. I kindof would of at least liked to see the Dunedain army with Aragorn and his banner along with the rest of the people of Gondor from down South, rather than the army of the dead.

But I guess you win some and you lose some. :D

I still wonder what they are going to add into the special extended edition DVD. I'm hoping at least the parley with Saurons Mouth. Maybe a few other things too like a conclusion to Saruman...

 

Offline Mongoose

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I know Christopher Lee is going to be in the extended version, to wrap the Saurman aspect up. One thing I hope they add is Aragorn's healing of Merry/Eowyn/Faramir, as well as Faramir and Eowyn's love story.  It would really add a lot to the books.  Of course, another cool aspect would be Ghan-buri-Ghan and the wood people, but I doubt they would add it in.  I also remember hearing that the scene with Frodo and Sam disguised as Orcs will be added, as well, which is great :).

Edit:  I just Googled for information about the extended edition.  While there are a lot of rumors about which scenes will be included, I did find that the running time will be a whopping 4 hours and 10 minutes :eek2:.    Bathroom breaks, anyone? :p  I'm still planning to pull an all-day/night marathon of all 3 extended editions :D.

 

Offline TrashMan

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Originally posted by Rictor
oooh, obscure Tolkien trivia.
As for the Valar, they kind of decided not to meddle after Morgoth was defeated, but later decided that if he (Morgoth) and his minions were going to make ****, they damn well wouldn't stand by and take it. So they sent the Istari, the Wizards, which was Radagast, Saruman, Gandalf and two others (Pallando and Araman I think) who went to the East (Harad) and they don't really enter the story. These guys were Maia, of the same kind os Sauron, though obviously weaker.


This is partially true. The Valar did refran from directly involving themselves in the matters of Midddle-Earth. After the Numenor fiasco and the separation of Valinor from this world, they sent the Istari.
Now Saruman and Gandalf aren't necessarily weaker than Sauron. In the Unfinished tales when Manwe sent the Istari to their mission, Olorin(Gandalf) said that he was afraid of confronting Sauron. Indeed, after his serving under Morgoth, he became powerfull indeed, but the Istari were not allowed to use their full power. They took the bodies of men with all the limitations they bring.

Quote
The Simarillion is probably the hardest thing to read ever written. Plan on getting VERY lost in all the name changes.

Better make big pot of coffee for it, but amazing story.

It's like a very interesting history book. That's why it has so many names and dates. I had to read it 3 times to finally connect all the threads. But an amazing read and true proof of Tolkiens dedication and genius.


AS FOR THE MOVIE:

Minas Tirith was broad, a huge city. In the movie it goes all in height and not in width, as it should.
Allso, it has 7 (SEVEN) thick walls, and the doors on each wall are on the opposite side. This means that any attacking army would have to go around  constatntly being shot by arrows from at least 2 walls. In the Book, saurons forces never got past the first door. The broke it, but they haven't even reached the second door.

Allso, the army of the Dead had nothing to do with Anduril(alltough it was still one of the most powerfull blades middle earth ever saw), but rather Aragorn's blood. And they had no power but that of Horror - they couldn't actually kill anyone.

The defenders of Helm's Deep were not that few of pathetic...

Aragorn got Anduril in Rivendell at the begining.
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Offline an0n

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And they glossed over the Denethor + Glowy Orb thing.
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Offline Grey Wolf

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Actually, if I remember correctly, Aragorn was carrying the shards of Narsil with him when he met the hobbits at the inn in Bree.
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Offline karajorma

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Originally posted by Mongoose
One thing I hope they add is Aragorn's healing of Merry/Eowyn/Faramir, as well as Faramir and Eowyn's love story.


That seems likely. At the end of the movie Faramir and Eowyn are shown together as a couple but very little is made of it. The second I saw them together I knew it had been cut for time rather than not being filmed.
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Offline Kazan

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Originally posted by kasperl
Well, Gimli is one, and he lead a small group to the big meeting. So I think only those in Moria got wiped, and the rest are still OK.

Quote
Originally posted by kasperl
1. Well, Elrond has one elven ring, Galadriel has another, perhaps her hubbie has the third?


Gandalf has the last one - the red ring he's wearing in the end -- the rest of the time he's just not allowing it to be seen


Quote
Originally posted by kasperl
2. Valar?
'

They're in Valinor (The Undying Lands) -- they send the Istari (wizards -- some of the strongest of the Ainur of the order Maiar - the Valar being Ainur of the order Valar) to 'train mankind' to stand on it's own
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Offline TrashMan

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Eru - the One True God. He created Ea(the world that is) and the Valar (think of them as Archangles) and Maiar(lesser angels, FAR weaker than a Valar).

Valinor was an continent on the west where the Valar made their home. It's called Undying Lands becoause of thoise who live there - Valar and Elves. Numenor was between Middle Earth and Valinor.
After the numenorian crazy assault, Valinor was removed from the borders of this world and the island of Numenor sank...
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Offline Kazan

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trashman - Sauron was the greatest of the Ainur of the order Maiar, Saruman _was_ second until gandalf's ascention to White
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Offline Clave

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What abaout Radagast?
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Offline Kazan

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among the Istari he is the 3rd mentioned - and is brown -- we must assume that he is the 3rd strongest

there are 5 istari - only three are mentioned
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Offline karajorma

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You do have to wonder what the other two were doing all that time don't you?

And what was Radagast upto during the War of the Ring?
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