[magatsu1]

*apologies to the board oldies who've probably had this debate hundreds of times already*

'Ave been watching the FS Movies recently and noticed a bit of an oddity. It's generally accepted the Ancients were moe powerful than the GTVA (mostly because of the size of their empire and the Knossos).

However, they couldn't track Shivans in sub-space and they didn't have any weapons which could penertrate shields (which I take means no beams).

So was the knossos built by the ancients ?

So whaddya you chaps reckon.

[Janos]

Yes they were.

[kode]

Originally posted by magatsu1
However, they couldn't track Shivans in sub-space
 

they could. they just found it out too late.

[Night Hammer]

I think they were more powerful technologically but they focused more on other things like exploration and what not rather than on their military

[kode]

Originally posted by Night Hammer
I think they were more powerful technologically but they focused more on other things like exploration and what not rather than on their military

no, they weren't. the chronicles says they butchered lot's of up and coming civilisations. what brought about their undoing was the inability to quickly adapt to a foe who's kind they had never encountered before.

[StratComm]

Which also means that they didn't have to develop beam weapons or any other means of constantly improving weaponry, they just had to maintain what they had.  The species they subdued were all much less advanced than them.  It can be argued that the T-V war ultimately saved both races, because it gave them reason to develop weapons technology to a point that could at least challenge the Shivan armada, whereas the Ancients didn't have that kind of competetion.

[Taristin]

That's a good point.

[FireCrack]

yeah, plus it says that terrans took beams from the shivans, thus the shivans could be the only original 'possesors' of beam weaponry.

[an0n]

The Ancients were about the same size and power as the GTVA, just without beams (and possibly without shields).

The Lucifer came in, kicked their asses, nuked their planets and they couldn't find a way to **** the Lucy up till it was too late.

[aldo_14]

The Ancients were far larger than the GTVA - After the Great War, scientists uncovered more sites throughout Terran-Vasudan space. Though only fragments remain, this interstellar society thrived thousands of years ago. Their empire was more expansive than the current boundaries of known space, and archeologists believe they might eventually uncover a map of the Ancient nodes, enabling the Alliance to travel to systems previously uncharted.

[karajorma]

an0n is right about their power level. Remember that the GTVA only managed to beat the shivans because they were told what was the Lucifiers weakness.

Had they had to find it out for themselves they would probably have been too late or never found it at all.

The fact that the GTVA beat the shivans while the ancients lost shouldn't be taken as any sort of reflection on their overall tech level.

[NGTM-1R]

Actually, it should. From what can be assumed from the Ancients' Monologues in FS1, the Ancients apparently never achieved a major victory against the Shivans. For them, the Shivans were unstoppable and invincible.

The GTA and PVE managed to achieve several significant victories, including capturing the Taranis and the destruction of several other Shivan cruisers and even a Demon-class destroyer. The death of a destroyer is a major achievement in anyone's book.

[StratComm]

It's a reflection of military tech level rather than tech level as a whole.  It seems likely that Ancients subspace advancements had continued, but without a simultaneous investment into weapons development.  The fact that the GTVA could stop the Lucifer was in part due to the legacy of the ancients, but their own resourcefulness in the conflict cannot be ignored.

[Kie99]

Originally posted by ngtm1r

 capturing the Taranis

That went well didn't it!

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by ngtm1r
Actually, it should. From what can be assumed from the Ancients' Monologues in FS1, the Ancients apparently never achieved a major victory against the Shivans. For them, the Shivans were unstoppable and invincible.

The GTA and PVE managed to achieve several significant victories, including capturing the Taranis and the destruction of several other Shivan cruisers and even a Demon-class destroyer. The death of a destroyer is a major achievement in anyone's book.

I think you may be underestimating the scale of the Ancient - Shivan war.  I've always felt that the war spanned a vast area, and tens of billions of Ancients died during the battle.  The Shivans were unstoppable to the Ancients, because for every victory they won (and doubtless at great cost), the Shivans would return with more and more ships, relentlessly attacking.  

It's not so much that the Ancients couldn't destroy Shivan vessels (excepting the Lucifer), but that whenever they did so they always lost heavy casualties, and that the Shivans could easily replace their losses whilst the Ancients could not.

[Rol]

the civilisation of the ancients must be far bigger than the GTVA because they build subspace gates to reach remote regions in space.
maybe the Shivans overwelm the Ancient high-tech ships whit Lucifer class ships so the Ancients never really have a chance
i think if you have ten Lucifer class and one Demon class destroyer its not a very major victory if you destroy the Demon

[Vaelinx]

The Ancients probably didn't have the beam technology required to take out the Lucifer.  Also, they could not adapt the concept that they observed quickly enough to make a difference.  The Shivans probably didn't even require a Sathanas to take them out.  We know that they were far more widespread than the GTVA, we also know that they subjucated other civilizations, but they were probably still in their infancy.

So they were militarily weaker than the GTVA, but more widespread and more knowlegable in certain aspects of subspace physics.  They probably has awesome trade and exploration ships...  I'd bet they could take on and down the Terrans and the Vasudans FS1-era...  But against the GTVA...  it would probably come down to numbers, with the GTVA having an incredibly higher battle effectiveness.

[Akalabeth Angel]

Has anyone made a campaign using the ancient's ships that come with inferno??

[FireCrack]

Originally posted by kietotheworld


That went well didn't it!

actualy it probably did, if the taranis had not been captured there'd be no hightened security around the station and thus less chance that some ships would escape to alert the allience of the lucifer. The lucifer could've been first discovered orbiting vasuda prime, and that wou'ld've been bad for both sides.

[MatthewPapa]

I would agree (with what someone said above) that the ancients couldnt win because they couldnt adapt fast enough. The GTA (and PVE I think too) was able to at least put shields and avenger weapons on all of its ships within the first week or so of the war before the GTA could take enough major inner system losses that could have made a difference in the outcome. Remember that the war still looked somewhat hopeful of winning for a while until the attack at Tombaugh station. The GTVA also had the smart to know that there had to be an answer somewhere when those vasudan scientists found the civilization on Altair to have been destroyed.