Author Topic: Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill  (Read 3304 times)

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Offline Bobboau

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
I've noticed Lib's use of Michal Savage's "Islamo-Fascist" sevral times, and while I do think that it's a fairly acurate description, I think many rightwing suporters over use there talkingpoints, now the left does this too, but they will change one or two words so at least when they do it it isn't so xeroxical.
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Offline aldo_14

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
I do not, repeat not want to start another long debate on the war.  However, in what way did the war in Iraq attack terrorism?  In what way has it reduced the terrorist threat?  If it hasn't, does that mean it has been lost?

You can't fight a war against terrorism.  Terrorism is not an army, or a single cohesive entity.  Terrorists don't fight on a foreign battlefield, they fight with a bomb, on a street or a bus or a plane or a boat, or simply strapped onto their body.

All the war in Iraq has achieved is sending a big recruiting message for Al-Queda, and making martyrs out of thousands of Iraqi civillians.  It's painted a giant bullseye on Madrid, on Washington, on London, on Canberra, on Rome, and most of all on Iraq itself.

There was a chance, just the slightest, that the US and by extension the west could strike a blow against terrorism in Afghanistan, by rebuilding that country as a free, strong and independent nation.  To say 'we will rebuild what we destroy, because this war isn't about you'.  They - we - failed.  

Instead, we see 'suspected' terrorists chucked in a prison camp, reclassified as 'illegal combatants' to flout the Geneva Convention.  We see a camp hidden behind a veil of shadows, where we have no way of knowing who is guilty, who is innocent, and who is held accountable.

You want to fight terrorism, you put more police on the streets, more people on the ground infiltrating these organisations (yes, that includes making it legal to check if terrorist suspects have bought a gun, Mr Ashcroft).  You take action against the social conditions that make people become terrorists, because you need to help tackle the supply as well as the recruiter.

But what you don't do, is start a war for no reason - worse, for a blatant lie - ignore the pleas of half the world and criticise them for speaking out, and then **** up the post-war situation so badly that the country is probably in a worse state than when it was invaded!

George Bush said "You're either with us, or against us".  Well, i'm againt him - because only a moron sees the world in such terms of black and white.*

*quoted from an Iain Banks interview
« Last Edit: September 26, 2004, 05:22:44 pm by 181 »

 

Offline Zarax

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
If you think that fascist can apply to an islamic government then you need to study a bit of history...
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Offline Bobboau

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascist

my understanding of the word fascist is that it is a right wing authoritarian government or ideology.
if you replace the nationalist with culturalist, then I'd say it's a fair aproxamation of the mindset of the people we're fighting.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline Zarax

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
That wikipedia description is pretty incomplete and does not render accurately the complexity of fascist ideology, which was not aimed towards religion, but rathen over autharchy and populism, with corporate government elements, where the strongest industries play an important role into influencing government decisions against labour and worker organizations.
In short words, you cannot swap theocracy for fascism, as they means deeply different things.
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Offline Rictor

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
fascism as a politcal ideology is disctinctly right-wing and authoritarian. It does not apply to "those bad, evil men" in general. In fact, the Iranian government is AFAIK quite leftist when it comes to economic policy.

Also, Iraq had nothing to do with fighting terrorism, you know that as well as I do Liberator. FFS, Osama and Saddam were enemies! You said it yourself, any agressive act that America undertakes will be neatly filed under the "war on terrorism", regardless of whether it actually has anything to do with it or not. Sort of like everything was done in order to stop the big, bad Communist threat back during the Cold War. Killing a few Guatemalan peasants, installing a repressive (and for a change, this one actually WAS fascist by the dictionary definition of the word) regime in Chile, its all about stoping the Commies and the Leftisits.

C'mon Lib, try thinking critically for a bit. Iraq was not a threat to the US, thats the bottom line. No links to al Queda, no WMD (or even programs)...no nothing. The invasion was not justified.

  

Offline Bobboau

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
now we're arguing over the definition of words,
I told you haw I use the word fascist [right-authoratarian] if that doesn't follow the historical oragins of the word well it's unfortunate that we speak in a liveing language were the meaning of words changes somewhat over the many years.
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline Zarax

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
Not to be a nitpicker, but since we are not talking about something fast evolving like tech language, but rather than terminology with a deep historical and cultural meaning you should use it within it's original meaning.
While former Iraqui could be somewhat described as fascist, neither Iran or Afghanistan ones coud, being theocracies evolved for semi Marxist revolutions.
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Offline Rictor

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
no, you use it correctly. I'm just against the bastardization of words, especially when its with political intent. It reminds me too much Orwell. sort of like terrorist in now taken to mean anyone who attacks America, regardless of whether the targets or civilian, military or whatever.

 
Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
yayz 4 conservatives!

Im not going to say anything else, lest I catch the topic on fire. :)

 

Offline vyper

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
"The road to hell is paved with good intentions"

It's an old saying, and it's been used far too often to really make the impact it should these days. I however, feel it is true especially in these dark days of uncertainty over the future and our own goals. What has happened since 9am on September the 11th, 2001 has been the symptom, not the disease.

It has taken over 30 years, but finally, we are all suffering the same fever that has gripped the 2nd and 3rd world for generations. We are all choking to death on the lies spoken by men who have led us from one war to another, one financial crisis to another, one tragedy to another. How many children have starved to death, or surrendered to the dark night while gasping violently in thier mother's arms as they frantically try to keep breathing through the toxic gasses the factory thier parents work in fill the air. How many men have gone from being masters of thier own temperment to men of fury, blind rage and purporters of the most horrible acts because of the pain inflicted upon them by men of power who seek not a national interest but a financial reward? That pain, that dark night, has stalked the population of the East, and the southern continents for many years. Now, it is coming for us.

Our leaders have one thing right: we are in danger of being destroyed by a weapon of mass destruction. This weapon, however is not chemical, biological or nuclear. It is an idea. An idea that we exist only to serve those with greater wealth than us. An idea that we have no say in our nations' future. An idea that we are subservient to the most ruthless and that men of good will are but fools who must be lauded but never directly supported. It is an idea that has kept us all in chains since before any one of us can remember. An idea that has seen fleeting moments of hope torn across it, yet always restored to strength by the unwillingness of men of character and concience to act.

You speak of taxation, and the justification for war in Iraq, Afghanistan and a dozen other places we will probably never any of us see in our lifetimes. I ask you, why are you so concerned about the events thousands of miles away when the biggest violation of human rights happens every day - every moment of our lives. Why do you not ask - why must I feel there is no one I can vote into government that can make things better? Why must I work so hard in profession and recieve a meager reward with even less respect from those around me? Why is it not enough for everyone in society to gain a place for themselves, for thier family and thier future without fear of being paid too little or provided with less than they require?

Men who came before us dreamed the same dreams we do - of a world where all men are equal, where each person has thier place in the world respected by all, where freedom and the good of your fellow man can be respected above all else? Why has this not happened? Why have so many generations failed to meet the challenge of building a better future? Can it ever happen?

I believe it can. I believe it can because in our hearts we men of good will have never given up, the few of us there are. We have kept the dreams alive in our hearts, in our minds, and in our children. Those among us who oppose us, do so not because they are "evil" but because they are tempted by the short term gains that thier lies provide them with, and the riches thier brutal and violent actions can bring.
It is the role of those of us who believe in a better tomorrow to stand fast, and uphold our ideas and principles that will always overcome the most gross levels of greed and most horrifying of violent acts. When we fail to do this, we become what truly is evil - we abandon our faith in the future and in ourselves and we betray our future children and thier own dreams.

We often falter, we often lose the moral courage to do what is right - but so long as we stand back up, dust ourselves off, admit to ourselves we made a mistake and confront injustice and hardship face on - then we can always call ourselves good people.

These are the reasons I do not fear the unjust man in this world. These are the reasons why I believe no matter how grim the future may seem today, tomorrow morning with the sunrise there is new hope.
These are the reasons I say to those who would exploit my fellow man and rape my fellow women: You are nothing to fear.

These are the truths I will commit my faith and my heart to.

These are the truths we must fight for, we must die for, and we must remember.

We must be free.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline vyper

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
P.S. Follow that. :)
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Bobboau

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
meh
any thinking person knows...


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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
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Offline vyper

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
So that'd be a no then? :)

Edit: Btw, I have no idea what kicked me off here 2nite. I think I'm just finally fed up with the way all these debates have been going recently.
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Offline Rictor

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wow vyper, you should be a speech writer or something.

...on second thought, what politician would be willing to speak those words?

 

Offline Bobboau

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
the one seeking to be elected,
politicians say many things
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DEUTERONOMY 22:11
Thou shalt not wear a garment of diverse sorts, [as] of woollen and linen together

 

Offline vyper

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
wow vyper, you should be a speech writer or something.

...on second thought, what politician would be willing to speak those words?


Thank you Rictor.

A few might take the risk, but only pay lip servce (if you pardon how that sounds). The day I want to see is the one where someone can stand up and say those words and mean them.

You know, a few years back I planned my career to go into politics - but then a very high level of apathy and hopelessness set in.

Every so often I surprise myself with things like this.
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14

 

Offline Ford Prefect

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
Words are under-rated, actions over-rated.
"Mais est-ce qu'il ne vient jamais à l'idée de ces gens-là que je peux être 'artificiel' par nature?"  --Maurice Ravel

 

Offline ionia23

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
Vyper,

Eh, **** it.  Compliment and admiration where compliment and admiration is due.  I'll be thinking about this for a long while.  Mind if I quote it in the future?


Our leaders have one thing right: we are in danger of being destroyed by a weapon of mass destruction. This weapon, however is not chemical, biological or nuclear. It is an idea. An idea that we exist only to serve those with greater wealth than us. An idea that we have no say in our nations' future. An idea that we are subservient to the most ruthless and that men of good will are but fools who must be lauded but never directly supported. It is an idea that has kept us all in chains since before any one of us can remember. An idea that has seen fleeting moments of hope torn across it, yet always restored to strength by the unwillingness of men of character and concience to act.


Brilliant.
"Why does it want me to say my name?"

 

Offline vyper

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Conservative group savages anti-P2P bill
[q] Mind if I quote it in the future?[/q]

First, thank you, second of course I have no objection. This is how ideas begin. :)
"But you live, you learn.  Unless you die.  Then you're ****ed." - aldo14