[Rictor]

ze avatars, zey are...same!
I'm confused.

[vyper]

I thought the orange sig text would've helped.

[Blitzerland]

Originally posted by Tiara
Respect for the military -> political debate -> military debate -> Manson

UPDATED:

Manson -> Avators -> Maturity

I've seen this before. Next comes the flaming...then the lockage.

(With french accent) Head for ze hills!

*Runs

[01010]

Damn you're annoying kid.

[Singh]

I Respect any armed forces, mainly because the members of them willingly put their lives on the line for the country. How many of us are actually willing to do that? How many of us are willing to give up our comfortable lives for a rough one like that in the field? I doubt many of us would.

I don't exactly support there actions in Iraq and elsewhere, but that's more a matter of the government leading the army than the army itself.

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by Singh
I Respect any armed forces, mainly because the members of them willingly put their lives on the line for the country. How many of us are actually willing to do that? How many of us are willing to give up our comfortable lives for a rough one like that in the field? I doubt many of us would.

I don't exactly support there actions in Iraq and elsewhere, but that's more a matter of the government leading the army than the army itself.

This is exactly what I was trying to say earlier.

[Rictor]

I would be willing to put my life on the line if I found a cause that was worth it. But the army, you don't choose your causes, others choose them for you, and you're jut the grunt that does it.

Since when does the ability to get ordered around without individual thought count as a virtue?

[Deepblue]

Humility and courage are virtues last time I checked.

[Rictor]

What you are reffering to is the idealized, Hollywood version of the army, where everyone is an noble, brave portait of virtue and strength. The classical warrior. The real army is ignorant, rascist and small-minded. How many of them do you think know the first thing about the political situation in Iraq, or anywhere for that matter? How many do you think care?

Now listen to me carefully: thoughtless obedience is not an admirable trait. It is thw willingness to make yourself a pawn, a slave to someone's else's whims. It shows that people would rather do what they are told than think for themselves. Sheep if you will.

[aldo_14]

What would you rather your country have - an army which follows orders, or one which takes every opportunity to ignore or change them based on personal whims?

[Rictor]

I would ideally like no army at all.
But since thats not likely, I would like an army that acts with the conscience of its individual parts. Meaning that, in addition to ignoring or disobeying any orders which a soldier feels is illegal or immoral, they would be free to disobey the order to fight in any war which they feel is illegal or immoral, which is the exact same principle.

Note that what I am talking about is NOT an active stance (eg: picking your own targets, which amount to vigilantiaism) but rather a passive one, as in refusing certain targets based on your moral perogative.

[Deepblue]

Originally posted by Rictor
What you are reffering to is the idealized, Hollywood version of the army, where everyone is an noble, brave portait of virtue and strength. The classical warrior. The real army is ignorant, rascist and small-minded. How many of them do you think know the first thing about the political situation in Iraq, or anywhere for that matter? How many do you think care?

Now listen to me carefully: thoughtless obedience is not an admirable trait. It is thw willingness to make yourself a pawn, a slave to someone's else's whims. It shows that people would rather do what they are told than think for themselves. Sheep if you will.

Service means that you have to be humble to take orders from people you may feel superior to. Courage is the ability to do what you need to do despite your dislike without shrinking.

Rascist and ignorant? Most people I know that serve are extremely intelligent and kind. They are not in any way "rascist." Tell me how you came to the conclusion that the military is ignorant and rascist? Is it because of racial profiling or the fact that they do not share your views. Those that belittle others because they do not share their views are often the people that need to change for the better and develop a more positive attitude.

[.::Tin Can::.]

I respect anyone who is willing to take a bullet for a cause.

[Rictor]

for ANY cause?
be specific here.

[.::Tin Can::.]

Its not the cause that matters, its the fact that they believe in it so that their life is less important than what they believe. I bet you want me to say "The war in Iraq" so you can jump in and say "OMG! YOU SUXORS! ITS A BIG LIE! OMG! WTF! SHUT UP TIN CAN! SHUT UP! YOU DONT KNOW! SHUT UP! *slap* SHUT UP! BBQ!"

[Rictor]

no, I just want to establish whether you hold that true for any cause? The SS, or Pol Pot's soldiers, they ought to be equally deserving of respect if you hold this standard, as US troops are.

What you are saying is that you admire the fighting spirit (or the spirit of brutality, depending on how you want to look at it), regardless of the cause that is serves, that right?

[.::Tin Can::.]

The fact that you believe in your cause over your life is not brutality or a fighting spirit. Its a spirit of belief, not "OMG IM GONNA KILL HIS ASS!"

If you were a Nazi in a Concentration Camp killing Jewish people, I would condem that of course. Thats blind murder.

However, a Nazi soldier on the front lines without the knowledge of Concentration Camps is still a soldier, an individual who fights for his country because he believes in it and what it stands for.

A non-violent expression is people who believe in their political party, their research and work, or their dedication to others.

[Rictor]

alright fine, so al Queda then. Or suicide bombers.

look, all I'm saying is, those who do not think for themselves do not deserve respect. Ignorance is not a virtue. Blind faith, blind conformity, these are not virtues. Being a grunt, a drone, a sheep, a mere machine, for others to use and direct as they with, this is not an admirable thing.

Killing people for no other reason than being ordered to do so, how can you possibly defend that? How is that deserving of respect.

[.::Tin Can::.]

Its a cause you believe in, not an order. Its not a blind cause either. You are fully aware of what you are defending as a person and you are conciously aware that it matters more to you than you matter to yourself.

As for the terrorists, I guess I cant respect them either, since now they are blowing up children.

[Ford Prefect]

Every cause is a blind cause if you are unwilling to accept that you have no way of knowing whether or not you are right.