Author Topic: To American Troops  (Read 6653 times)

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Offline Rictor

  • Murdered by Brazilian Psychopath
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Quote
Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
Its a cause you believe in, not an order. Its not a blind cause either. You are fully aware of what you are defending as a person and you are conciously aware that it matters more to you than you matter to yourself.

As for the terrorists, I guess I cant respect them either, since now they are blowing up children.


Alright, so then I take you think that US soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere are fully aware of the political, social, economic and other implications of their actions? That they are familiar with the history of the conflict, the people and the various forces that have made their presence necessary?

In short, that they are aware of the their circumstances, and what they are fighting for and more importantly, why.

I don't think so. If they are at least as oblivious as the rest of America (and in fact, the world) then they have nowhere near the knowledge necessary to make decisions of the lsort which they are making, decisions which will affect the future of a country and the 25 million people in it.

Hell, most of the antiwar movement, who are generally better informed and more politically aware, are ignorant on the subject.

Face it, people, soldiers included, know more about the NFL than they do about Iraq. And yet, they are over there, playing God with the fates of millions, and they simply trust that the higher-ups will make the right decisions. If someone asked me to invade a country, occupy the people and take lives, I would see to it that I'm a ****ing proffesor on the subject before I even pick up my gun. That way, I am making a conscious decision as an individual that this is what is right, not simply following orders cause I can't be bothered to think for myself.

 
Rictor, you seem to think a soldier is a drone and not a human being. Soldiers can make decisions on whether to obey or disobey an order that sounds extreme, example, killing an unarmed child in the middle of a room. Id definately say "Go to hell sir" and then would drop my gun.

You dont have to know every shining detail as to what you are fighting for, just basically why you are doing it in a plain term is fine with me. Are some of the soldiers going to be lied to? Of course. Everyone is lied to in all circumstances throughout history, but if a soldier came back from seeing his friends die and was horror-stricken, would you run up to him and spit in his face and call him a disgrace of America?

 

Offline Singh

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor
What you are reffering to is the idealized, Hollywood version of the army, where everyone is an noble, brave portait of virtue and strength. The classical warrior. The real army is ignorant, rascist and small-minded. How many of them do you think know the first thing about the political situation in Iraq, or anywhere for that matter? How many do you think care?

Now listen to me carefully: thoughtless obedience is not an admirable trait. It is thw willingness to make yourself a pawn, a slave to someone's else's whims. It shows that people would rather do what they are told than think for themselves. Sheep if you will.


Dude. I am in the army as it is. Even though its just as a clerk; I see what the others go through when they go outfield and what-not. I know the political games that occur in the army; especially between the ranks. Yet I still respect them. Agreed, not many of hte ground soldiers would think about the political scenario - but that is because they can't afford to think of such a thing during the midst of battle.
I doubt an army Jawan freezing in hte hills of Kashmir has much to think of other than how he's going to get through the night, and hold his position against the equally freezing Pakistani soldier in the hill accross him.

Thoughtless obedience? I'd think not. If a soldier were just a drone; I'd say WWII would have had Six million Military Casualties rather than Civilian ones. It takes more than just blind faith to follow orders; it takes more than just passiveness to survive in a warzone, no matter what your role.
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Offline an0n

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Every solider I have ever known, both part-time and career, has been concerned soley with getting drunk and ****ing some random whore.

The single most political sentence I have ever heard a Squaddie mutter was "Wales is ****in' ****".
"I.....don't.....CARE!!!!!" ---- an0n
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Offline Eviscerator

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I have not yet had the time to read this entire thing yet, but I am getting to it.

I was wondering, however, if you wanted the perspective of a veteran who served 12 years in both combat arms and intelligence who's career centered on the Middle East?

Naaahhhh..... dinna think so...

And btw, I was never particularly concerned with getting drunk, or whoring. I knew a few soldiers who were, but you see people like that in every profession and every walk of life. The vast majority of those I served with made it a point to be very informed about the people, region, political and factional climate, and culture of the places we were deploying to. It was a require ment that was always stressed very heavily as such knowledge cannot only save lives, but can help to avoid dangerous problems as well.
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Offline Clave

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Anyone here actually been in the military?

*raises hand*

The difference between being on the inside and being a civilian is immense.  The Army, Air Force, or Navy becomes the core of your life and everyone outside are merely 'civvies'  Now I know they are there to be protected, but the main person you had to look after first was yourself, then the people around you, and finally everyone else.  

It may seem odd, but some of the exercises we did involved locking down the base and preventing civilian incursion.  It was thought that because we had bomb shelters, NBC suits, clean food and water, that people on the outside would break in if there was any kind of war, but especially a nuclear attack.  So some of us would play civilians and try and create a riot at the main gate, while others were guards trying to stop them getting in.  Now, these things are played out for real, with blank ammo etc. and the first thing you realise is that, if you are ordered to shoot someone, you WILL DO IT....

The matter of responsibility lies with the superior officer on the scene.  Of course there are rules which he has to obey, but they can be 'interpreted' if need be.  For instance the rules of 'Minimum Force' and 'Warning before opening fire' can be completely ignored if an 'Immediate Threat' is there.  So.... we do need a military, but we must also be aware that they will protect their own first before looking out for everyone else.  This is one reason why Iraq will drag on and on, because in the eyes of the average grunt on the ground, there are only two groups there - his buddies, and everyone else - who are ALL potential targets.  I can understand how they do it, but not how they keep doing it day after day, knowing the it might be thier turn next...

Brave? Yes, I think so...

Edit: Yep, Eviscerator stick some views in here....

Edit 2: Damn! so many posts while I was typing this!
« Last Edit: October 07, 2004, 01:32:33 am by 2221 »
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Offline Singh

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Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Every solider I have ever known, both part-time and career, has been concerned soley with getting drunk and ****ing some random whore.

The single most political sentence I have ever heard a Squaddie mutter was "Wales is ****in' ****".


Wierd. I barely see it here (ok, its there, but not as much as ya think) :p
"Blessed be the FREDder that knows his sexps."
"Cursed be the FREDder that trusts FRED2_Open."
Dreamed of much, accomplished little. :(

 

Offline Bobboau

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probly depends on were you are mik was talking about all kinds of crap happining at the base he was stationed at (Japan)
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Rictor


Alright, so then I take you think that US soldiers in Iraq and elsewhere are fully aware of the political, social, economic and other implications of their actions? That they are familiar with the history of the conflict, the people and the various forces that have made their presence necessary?

In short, that they are aware of the their circumstances, and what they are fighting for and more importantly, why.

I don't think so. If they are at least as oblivious as the rest of America (and in fact, the world) then they have nowhere near the knowledge necessary to make decisions of the lsort which they are making, decisions which will affect the future of a country and the 25 million people in it.

Hell, most of the antiwar movement, who are generally better informed and more politically aware, are ignorant on the subject.

Face it, people, soldiers included, know more about the NFL than they do about Iraq. And yet, they are over there, playing God with the fates of millions, and they simply trust that the higher-ups will make the right decisions. If someone asked me to invade a country, occupy the people and take lives, I would see to it that I'm a ****ing proffesor on the subject before I even pick up my gun. That way, I am making a conscious decision as an individual that this is what is right, not simply following orders cause I can't be bothered to think for myself.


All these questions are those you ask of the people who send the troops, not the troops.

 

Offline Tiara

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I agree that ultimately, the government is resposinble for the actions of the military and not the military itself.

However, this does not take away the duty of any military officer to disregard any order that is in direct contrast with moral obligations. But being sent to fight a war is not one of the things. No officer can say "I dun wanna go to war cuz its wrong.".

People saying that any and every person should obey at all times is just a moron. Thats how Saddam worked, not the Western World. If an order is in direct contrast with the moral obligations and standards, an order does not have to be followed.

(This is an actual rule btw. Not something i made up.)
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...because I can :drevil:

 
Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Every solider I have ever known, both part-time and career, has been concerned soley with getting drunk and ****ing some random whore.

The single most political sentence I have ever heard a Squaddie mutter was "Wales is ****in' ****".


But we are all convinced you have a horrible outlook on life, so, its doesnt really matter

 

Offline übermetroid

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Quote
Originally posted by Clave
Anyone here actually been in the military?

The difference between being on the inside and being a civilian is immense.  The Army, Air Force, or Navy ..............................


*raises hand* - :mad2:   You for got to list the Marines!

Quote
Originally posted by an0n
Every solider I have ever known, both part-time and career, has been concerned soley with getting drunk and ****ing some random whore.


Not I said the ex Marine.  :D
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Thank you for all your replies. Now tell me you think we will ever catch Bin Ladden?

 

Offline aldo_14

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Pakistan are probably more likely to catch Bin Laden.

 

Offline Deepblue

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Yes. Either that or he'll be blown to hell by a predator launched missile.

 

Offline Kosh

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Quote
Originally posted by Deepblue
Yes. Either that or he'll be blown to hell by a predator launched missile.




Or a Predator's shoulder cannon. ;7
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Offline vyper

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I'm betting more on a Pakistani rifle ...
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Offline aldo_14

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or liver failure.

 

Offline 01010

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Damn Aldo, you beat me to it.
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Offline Rictor

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less than a month to go, we'll soon see if this whole line of conversation is moot already.

...can you even say line of conversation. You can say line of arguement, but...I dunno, its kind of a grey area. It doesn't sound right.
« Last Edit: October 07, 2004, 03:51:30 pm by 644 »