Author Topic: Cruise Duration for GTVA ships  (Read 19780 times)

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Offline Eishtmo

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Cruise Duration for GTVA ships
Quote
Originally posted by Nuke
we already ruled that out eshtmo, the crews of freespace vessels are too large to feed with onbored gardens. it would be feasable if the crews were smaller though.  


Hydroponics are not gardens.  Basically you grow plants in boxes of water on shelves with big light bulbs in them.  Think of it as folding an acre of land into the space of a bedroom.  Now I'm not saying it would be the only source (that's just plain silly), but it would be an important, long term source of food, one that can be used for variety of purposes (including the making of alcohol).
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Cruise Duration for GTVA ships
Yes, we know that.  Since you insist on not reading the thread...

Quote
And those who think a greenhouse can feed 10.000, you should check on the experience done in the Arizona desert, the geo-bubble or some other silly thing. They had a huge greenhouse, there were only 5 or 6 people inside, and they even considered aborting the experiment because they were short on food. And if 5 people can´t feed for a year over a greenhouse the size of 2 football fields, just imagine the size a greenhouse would have to be to feed 10.000...


Now I know that's not exactly the same as hydroponics, but you're kidding yourself if you think that hydroponics are even 200% better than those greenhouses.

 

Offline Nuke

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with hydrophonics you can pretty much simulate all seasonal conditions but hte fact still remains that you would need to turn out tonnes of food daily. and to do that you would need alot of cabnets and alot of people to tend them. ive seen a set of hydrophonic cabnets  and i know for a fact that you have to change your florescent bulbs every 3 months. so we need space to store those lightbulbs as well.
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Offline aldo_14

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Future hydroponics would probably also use genetically engineered plants designed for that exact purpose.  

And they'd probably have lightbulbs or such which  last longer than 3 months in the 24 century dontyathink?

 
Cruise Duration for GTVA ships
Allthough you would do away with earth in hydroponics, the plants themselfs still take a whole lot of space. Just imagine a tomatoe plant. The plant is the size of a small child, and you would get like 6 or 7 tomatoes out of it for a period of 6 months. But 6 or 7 tomatoes would feed one guy for one day, at most.
So imagine the space needed to feed 10.000...
The question here is not wheter you can grow food in a ship, the question is how much space you would need to grow food to feed 10000 hungry guys.
Just as a comparison, my parents have a vegetable garden, about 600 square meters. They plant tomatoes, turnips, potatoes, and other such bulbs. Now, you know how much food that garden produces in a year? About enough to feed a family of 4 for a week, at most! Do your math.
Hydroponics could work for a trip to Mars today, with a crew of 3 or 4. But for a crew of 10000, not even if you stripped the Colossus and used every single space inside its hull to grow food, you would still go hungry after a week in space.
And let´s not forget that plants need to eat aswell. Light alone won´t do it, you need water, massive ammounts of it. You need potassium, calcium, and dozens other minerals. There is just no way it can be done.
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Allthough you would do away with earth in hydroponics, the plants themselfs still take a whole lot of space. Just imagine a tomatoe plant. The plant is the size of a small child, and you would get like 6 or 7 tomatoes out of it for a period of 6 months. But 6 or 7 tomatoes would feed one guy for one day, at most.
So imagine the space needed to feed 10.000...
The question here is not wheter you can grow food in a ship, the question is how much space you would need to grow food to feed 10000 hungry guys.
Just as a comparison, my parents have a vegetable garden, about 600 square meters. They plant tomatoes, turnips, potatoes, and other such bulbs. Now, you know how much food that garden produces in a year? About enough to feed a family of 4 for a week, at most! Do your math.
Hydroponics could work for a trip to Mars today, with a crew of 3 or 4. But for a crew of 10000, not even if you stripped the Colossus and used every single space inside its hull to grow food, you would still go hungry after a week in space.
And let´s not forget that plants need to eat aswell. Light alone won´t do it, you need water, massive ammounts of it. You need potassium, calcium, and dozens other minerals. There is just no way it can be done.


Ignoring the possibility of dehydrated food packs and recycling; you're talking about vegetables (and assuming they are Earth veggies) which would have a very high food-to-stalk ratio, and which would be engineered to produce super-large vegetables very, very rapidly (possibly using specially engineered & synthesizable growth hormones); and also engineered to function on a very, very low level of nutrients (could also use ships sewage as fertiliser).

Basically,I think you can stretch the science of 300 years time enough to make a hydroponic based solution viable.  The idea of breeding or genetically engineering super-productive plant breeds is far from new, after all; and there may be some alien plant life able to act even more effectively.  Hell, maybe you could develop a form of edible algae which can be aggresively cultivated over a tiny space.

Water, is a key thing though, which you're right in pointing out; there's no substitute for it, so there must need to be some form of huge tank somewhere.

 
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Just like to point out that plant that take in very little nutrients, in turn, contain very little nutrients as well.

 

Offline Eishtmo

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Quote
Originally posted by ChronoReverse
Just like to point out that plant that take in very little nutrients, in turn, contain very little nutrients as well.


Depends on the plants.  There are lots of high energy plants out there (don't know any specific ones off hand), and like aldo said, they've got 300 years on us, so they might have developed higher energy foods.

Quote
Originally posted by Swamp_Thing
Just as a comparison, my parents have a vegetable garden, about 600 square meters. They plant tomatoes, turnips, potatoes, and other such bulbs. Now, you know how much food that garden produces in a year? About enough to feed a family of 4 for a week, at most! Do your math.


First of all, your parents are limited to a specific range of times when such plants can grow, usually between March (at the earliest) to Septemeber or so, perhaps six months, on one section of land with all the trials and tribulations which come with gardening outdoors.  Now, lets say that you can plant year round with no problems, no bugs, no random rainstorms or animals to interfer with the growth cycle, as well as 24 hour sunlight.  Now you're looking at a crop of food every 3-6 months (depending on the response of the plants to constant sunlight and near ideal growth conditions).  That, based on your example, would feed 4 people for 4 weeks at maximum, or 16 for one.

Not a lot, true, but the numbers start going up from there.  A proper hydroponics bay will use shelves and remove the soil completely.  That 600 square meters now increases by several fold in size thanks to stacking (how much would depend on the design of the the bay).  Assume 4 shelves, which increases things to 64 for a week.  Now, an Orion is 2.2 kilometers long, and if we make the bay about 25x24 meters (not a perfect square, but those are hard to work with), we can get, in a row for half a kilometer (500 meters) something like 20 bays, cranking it up to 1280 people per week.

Of course, we don't know how many bays an Orion could actually have compared to the other equipment on board ship, including food stores, weaponry, recycling equipment, fighter bays, the main reactor, communications and, of course, sleeping quarters for the crew.  Still, 1280 people a week is nothing to sneeze at, and that's assuming you give them a full ration of product from the fields and don't suppliment them with dehydrated food, stored food, recycled rations etc, etc etc.  And on top of all that, we're forgeting that they are 300 years in the future, having probably developed high energy, high yield fruits and vegatbles for the various colonies of the Terran race, which could increase it significantly.  Plus you have rotating crops, growth cycles, and effectively a near constant crop cycle for the entire cruise and while you probably couldn't feed the entire crew fresh corn every day, you could do it often enough to treat them, or just serve it to the officers, which would easily match the numbers we have.

Could they live on it exclusivily?  Nah, probably not, but it would certainlly help on extreamly long term cruises.
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Offline FireCrack

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Cruise Duration for GTVA ships
they probably have geneticly modified plants that pump out raw nutrients on one side and oxygen on a nother. All from C02 and water, with sunlight added

Then again these guys have a freaking bar on the ship, who the hell says they dont get daily food shipments from a posiden.
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline aldo_14

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Of course, we're also assuming future-people haven't themselves been genetically modified for space travel - for example for better endurance under low light or unnatural gravity conditions, or obviously just to use less food.  

There may also be use of cryogenics to either store food or keep crew on rotation without requiring feeding them.  (Why a crew would volunteer to work where their off-shift free time was frozen, I don't know... but if needs must...)

EDIT; you know it doesn't say if there is a bar on an Orion.  The fsref bible describes it simply as "It becomes apparent that this bar is on a military installation or ship of some sort".  

Given that a later cutscene mentions a fight with Vasudans in the same bar -  and the GTA would probably be reticent to allow Vasudans to come and get pissed on an Orion (no officer exchange, HoL threat still present) -  I reckon it's most likely the bar is on an Arcadia; it's more likely that way that the Vasudans would simply be stopovers from a resupplying/under-repair ship.

EDIT2; actually, balls to that :o.  The text for Act 2 1B makes it pretty clear that the bar is located in a cruiser which the player will be escorting.
« Last Edit: December 01, 2004, 05:20:36 am by 181 »

 

Offline Goober5000

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:wtf: That makes very little sense.  The Arcadia would be the best bet.

 

Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by Goober5000
:wtf: That makes very little sense.  The Arcadia would be the best bet.


i may have jumped the gun on assuming it referred to a cruiser, but;

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Act 2 Misc 1A

Scenes opens with a shot of the bar used earlier.  There are two Vasudans at a table close to the bar.  The table next to them has two Terrans drinking.  The scene opens with a far shot and then cuts to a close up of the two Terran pilots in the midst of conversation..  A newscast hums on in the background.

Will:      I dunno Jake.  I just think that you’re a damn pessimist.

Jake:   Oh come on man!  How much will it take before you realize how badly we’re doing!  I mean our butts are getting kicked! Just look around…we’ve got more refugees from surrounding colonies than trained pilots here!  Did you hear about that huge Shivan Destroyer that popped up and nailed Tombaugh station and that Cruiser we captured?  Didn’t stand a chance.  All that’s left now is a bunch of scrap metal and vapors…

Will:   Oh there we go….more rumors…

Jake:   I’m telling you it’s true…I heard from a good source, he said he’s seen the footage!  You know what I think.  I think it’s those damn cow-faced Vasudans…  You know they’d just love to kill us all.  You know if the Shivans hadn’t shown up, we’d still be blasting them out of the sky!

Will:   You really think so don’t you?  If that’s the case then why are their scientists helping us out?

Jake:   Helping!  They’re probably studying us…taking notes.  Trying to figure out how to hit us after the Shivans are gone.  That’s why everything is so damn ominous here! [Jake gets a little louder]  We’ve got to share our quarters with those damn snot nosed sand crawlers!

[This gets a look from one of the Vasudans at the other table.  They look for a moment but then ignore the Terrans and continue talking…]

Will:   Jake, keep your voice down!  I agree that morale does seem to be a bit low here…but that doesn’t mean we’re losing because of the Vasudans.  Everyone’s just getting tired of fighting is all…

Jake:   Oh yeah, tired.  Tired of losing battle after battle.  Tired of seeing their best friend become a piece of space debris.  Tired……tired….

Jake suddenly gets quiet and looks at his glass.  We hear the newscast clearer as they both look up at the monitor.  

[Cut to closer shot of monitor]

Anchor:   Early last night the Terran shipyard outside of the Rodine System was destroyed by unknown sources.  Apparently a distress signal was sent, but by the time support arrived the attackers had left the area.

   The Vasudan “Hammer of Light” group has claimed responsibility for the attack stating that all those who fight the Shivans are resisting the divine plan.  However military officials state that there is no proof the radical movement was involved.

[The newscast continues as Jake starts up again]

   Hammer of Light leader “CCC” issued a statement to the….

Jake:   See!  It’s those damn sand eating bastards!  I tell you man.  We ought to kill em all.  They’re causing more trouble than the Shivans.

Will:   I don’t know about that, Jake.  I’ve heard some evil **** about the Shivans…

Jake   Oh they’re all in it together. First those stinking Shivans show up.  That’s why they signed that treaty. They knew they would lose.  They’re in it together I tell you.

[The two Vasudans look over again]

Jake:   Yeah buddy!  What are you looking at?…

[You see the two groups eyeing each other suspiciously as the video fades to black]

[Missions after this scene concern covering the retreat of a Terran Cruiser and its escorts to an alternate system.]


AP 2/26:  Also cut.  In fact, all scenes following this are cut except for the endgame cutscene, which is intact.  Also intact are the 6 “Ancients” readings that explain the life and downfall of the Ancients that discovered the Shivan weaknesses.  I’ll include the text from those at the end of this section, but before the Species Descriptions.

Act 2 Misc 1B

[Same as A, but the hard stares to the Vasudan’s table ends in violence.  Act 2 Misc 1A continues from the two parties staring at each other here:]

Vasudan1:   You have a loud mouth, human.  If you knew the truth you would not say such things.

Will:      Hey man…he just had a bit too much to drink…give him a break.

Jake:   Yeah!  Give me a break!  In fact I’ll tell you what.  Why don’t you come over here and I’ll give you a break!  I’ll break your face into little alien pieces and flush it down the toilet!

[Jake gets up and nears the other table.  The two Vasudans stand.  Will mumbles something but then gets up too…]

Vasudan2:   You should leave now.

Jake:   Me leave!  Ha!  This is our damn ship you stupid bastards!  You think you own it!  Here own this!

[Jake takes a swing and hits the Vasudan.  The other Vasudan starts to fight with Will.  The fight starts up and we heard shouts in the background as other people get involved.  The camera cuts to the anchor as we see a shot of the radical Vasudan leader giving some speech and the scenes fades out with the fight sounds in the background.]

[Missions after will cause the Cruiser to become crippled, and the player will then have to escort escape transports as they flee the dying ship].

 
Cruise Duration for GTVA ships
Damn... that would've been an awesome cutscene for FS1.

 

Offline Carl

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it would have been way to difficult to animate given the budget and time restraints.
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Offline Cyker

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Cruise Duration for GTVA ships
Well, I figure all decent-sized ships will have some sort of hydroponics, but that will only supply, at best, half of what the ship needs. The rest will be accounted for via supply runs and stuff...

What's the average away-time for a military naval aircraft carrier? That would make a good starting point for trying to gauge this sort of thing...

 

Offline Carl

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it might help if we knew how much food the average adult eats per day.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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There were Vasudans on the Galatea for the Command Briefing cutscene about the Taranis. Which is also what the missing cutscene was talking about, I believe.
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Offline aldo_14

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I'm still trying to think of a sensible reason to have a pub on a military vessel, though.  Of course, the pilots being drunk all the time would explain a few things about the AI.........

 

Offline Flaser

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Serving alcohol is an age old tradition on military vessels - on some modern AEGIS cruisers that offer great comfort compared to older ships, you may get away without one, but ships as crowded and unbearable as the ones in the GTA/PVN/GTVA will definitly need one.
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Offline aldo_14

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But do they have a dedicated pub for it, with neon lights et al?