[Gank]

So say the marines, the guys who carried out the assault.
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/afp/20041118/wl_mideast_afp/us_iraq_falluja_report&cid=1514&ncid=1473
No real surprise though.

[aldo_14]

1 front 'closes', 12 new ones open up.

I was pessimistic more of the political failure of Fallujah than the military failure initially.... I had expected the overwhelming US force to 'win' (abstract concept as it may be) this battle.

But it's become likely (to me) that what the insurgents now want is to create more & more Fallujah type situations - i.e. in Mosul - and to simply exploit the civillian casualties and political fallout.

[Rictor]

Is anyone surprised that "Zarqawi" has escaped in "stronghold" of Fallujah. I wonder where he'll show up next. Mosul? Sadr City? Najaf?

I guess the US will have to attack them all, just to get one man. They seem to be pretty good at that sort of thing.

[Grey Wolf]

You know, I'm starting to think we may be getting into either Phillipines Mk. 2 or Vietnam Mk. 2. Which would be worse, I'm not sure....

[.::Tin Can::.]

24 American Soldiers Dead
1,000 Insurgents Dead

The general insisted that there were no plans to withdraw forces from Fallujah.

[Flipside]

It's a lovely word isn't it... 'Insurgent'...Sounds almost.....never mind.

That's the worst kind of withdrawal there is, that, the kind that isn't planned

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
24 American Soldiers Dead
1,000 Insurgents Dead

 

NB: 1000 insurgents of an estimated 20-40,000 in the country.

The battle of Fallujah was not military, it was political*.  We've already seen an upsurge in violence elsewhere, notably Mosul but also in Baghdad, Ramada, Baiji and Baquba.  World Vision has also pulled out of Iraq due to the continuing deterioration of security.   UNHCR has said tens of thousands of former Fallujah citizens are now displayed - i.e. homeless refugees - due to the fighting.

There are also rumours of a typhoid outbreak in Fallujah, and disease worries from bodies left in the street to rot.  There are also no hospital facilities or food supplies available for the thousands of people stuck in the city, and it's too dangerous for them to go out anyways.

The Sunni parties have already pulled out of co-operating with the interim government as a result.  Sunni rebels have threatened to kill anyone who participates or assists in elections.

International Muslim opinion is generally outraged at the effective besieging and levelling of a city (a city which was initially had a pro-US major and little looting, until US troops fired on a demonstration) - and you don't really want to outrage muslims further when you are (supposedly) also trying to combat terrorism.

So, yeah, really big victory in the battle for Iraqi hearts and minds.

*i.e. victory would not be measured in military terms but the effect upon the security and stability of Iraq.

[Rictor]

Now, correct me if I'm wrong, but does not forcing 250,000 people out of their homes count as ethnic cleansing? Nations have been bombed for less.

[Grey Wolf]

It could be worse. We could have had the attack without the evacuation, leading to tens of thousands of civilian casualties...

[Gank]

Originally posted by .::Tin Can::.
24 American Soldiers Dead
1,000 Insurgents Dead

 

Talking ****e again, 60 US dead so far according to:
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/ops/iraq_casualties_nov04.htm

As for the insurgent bodycount, its a guess:
http://slate.msn.com/id/2109871/fr/rss/
Your military kinda has a history of pumping up its bodycounts. Might shock you to hear it but outside the US your military has the credibility of comical ali. Heres why:
Privately the Marine corps says:
"the enemy will be able to effectively defeat I MEF's ability to accomplish its primary objectives of developing an effective Iraqi security force and setting the conditions for successful Iraqi elections."
See article at top
Publicly it says:
"We feel right now that we have, as I mentioned, broken the back of the insurgency.
http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041118/ap_on_re_mi_ea/us_iraq_4

[Gank]

Originally posted by aldo_14
I was pessimistic more of the political failure of Fallujah than the military failure initially.... I had expected the overwhelming US force to 'win' (abstract concept as it may be) this battle.

The problem is the US force wasnt overwhelming, in terms of firepower it was but to "win" this battle militarily they would have had to sweep every house in a city of 250,000 for insurgents. With a force of 10,000 thats just not possible. The only real way to pacify it is bomb it flat, and that seems to be what the US has done.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A63733-2004Nov19?language=printer

[Rictor]

Siege of Sarajevo
12,000 killed
250,000 expelled*


Fallujah
Anywhere between 10,000 and 70,000+ killed**
250,000 expelled

Tell me again, which one is war-crimes? How about ethnic cleansing?



*A small portion of which were Serbs who left for Republika Srpska, though this only makes the comparison worse.

**There are no concrete figures AFAIK, but the Lancet report makes clear that an significant number of the civilians deaths in Iraq occured in Fallujah, I've read as much as 2/3. Also, Fallujah was intentionally excluded from the 100,000 figure, and the researchers have said that if it were to  be included, the figure would be much higher, as much as a whole 100k higher. Even a very conservative figure would easily match Sarajevo

[Flipside]

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story2&u=/ap/20041120/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

And it's escalating apparently.....

[Bobboau]

if we were planning on moveing new people in or keeping the old people out forever then you would have a point Rictor.

[karajorma]

That was the point I was about to make Bob.  

What's going on in Falujah is not ethnic cleansing. No matter how horrible you consider it you're going to need to come up with a new euphanism for it.

[aldo_14]

Originally posted by karajorma
That was the point I was about to make Bob.  

What's going on in Falujah is not ethnic cleansing. No matter how horrible you consider it you're going to need to come up with a new euphanism for it.

Closest thing could be 'political cleansing', but that would only be applicable if you had evidence of deliberate targeting of civillians.

but I agree with the Red Cross; http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4027163.stm