Author Topic: Shivan theory  (Read 11352 times)

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Offline High Max

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« Last Edit: January 04, 2010, 08:31:47 pm by High Max »
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Offline Hippo

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There's a lot of theories out there. A lot of people think different things. A lot of people think that they should just let the shivans be an enigma. You're quite welcome to post your ideas, but keep in mind that you'll probably have a lot of people disagree with you.


In my opinion, it doesn't seem plausable, from what we have seen before...
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Offline IceFire

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Quote
Originally posted by High Max
I think that it's possible that each species that the Shivans annihalate, the Shivans somehow add some physical body parts of those species to themselves. It says that they are interested in xenocide. Perhaps the Shavans look the way they do because the Shivan race inherits physical traits of every race that they have exterminated. Their ships might also be a combination of the physical traits of ships that belonged to every race they destroyed. They took Bosch and maybe they were using Bosch so they could do experiments on him and find a way to fuse human DNA into themselves. Maybe the Supernova, when you saw the Shivan and Terran corvettes get blasted by the blue shockwave and saw the debris get mixed together, it might have represented the Shivans DNA combining with the Terrans DNA.:confused:

I like the thinking, especially the part at the end about symbolism but  I don't agree.

The one thing that I think punctures this is the message from the science advisors regarding the technology of the Knossos portal.  They say the Knossos portal is distinct from the Shivans technology despite their diversity.  I'm paraphrasing so I'd have to go back and find that for the exact quote.

You'd think if the Shivans somehow had borrowed something from the Ancients they would have been able to make a connection between the Knossos and the Shivan ships and technology they have studied.
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Offline aldo_14

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Given that the Shivans are/were massively in advance of the GTVA/Ancients, I'm not sure what they'd have to gain from 'hybridising' with any race they destroy.

 
The Shivans don't seem that advanced.  Yes, they're powerful.  Yes, they've got some technological edges.  But I see their advantages more in the area of raw resources than sheer technology.
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Offline Striker

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We have to remember FS1. Their purpose wasnt exploration or assimilation; it was destruction. Bombarding Vasuda Prime into a wasteland and disintegrating the marines onboard the captured Azrael isnt the best way to study another species. Unless you like to see how well they disintegrate. Then, by all means, lets let the shivans carry on.

I personally prefer the opinions in the Shivan Manifesto. I read the whole damn thing and really didnt have any arguements. Read it if you are that into the story.
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Offline Striker

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Does anyone besides me think we need a subforum devoted entirely to the discussion of Shivans? There's so much to talk about on the subject it might be a good idea.
...lurk

 

Offline karajorma

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Nah. The main forum can get quiet at times. We're seeing a lot about them recently cause we're getting another influx of new people thanks to some german magazine putting FS2 on it's coverdisk.

You know. We should really get them to put FS2_Open on there too :D
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Offline mitac

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karajorma, interesting idea. I guess that *could* be possible, depending on what the SCP people and the HLP admins think. It may attract a lot of attention, but it may also draw a lot of idiots. :blah:
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Offline Striker

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Back to topic?

I've been thinking about how the Shivans knew about Sol and Vasuda Prime being the respective home worlds. They never seemed intent to take prisoners and therefore no interrogation. They cant read minds or crap like that otherwise they'd have beaten us (completely) long ago. The only good conclusion I can think of supports another theory: Shivan's have a sixth sense of subspace. What systems would the GTA and PVN most actively use subspace in, excluding the contested systems of the T-V war? Their homeworlds. That's how they knew to target them.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I suspect they recovered computer records from wreckage of destroyed craft myself. It would also explain why they had to take some time. I would imagine that GTA and PVN craft are designed to destroy their onboard records when they are destroyed.
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Offline Mad Bomber

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I'll sign on with the "sixth-sense" idea -- they see subspace traffic, they find and kill subspace traffic. Hunter-killers meant to keep the flux of subspace clean.

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Offline Striker

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The reason they didnt use the Ross 128 (and Ikeya?) node(s) was probably because they became unstable. It's even possible that the Lucifer fleet was sent out as a scout for the rest of the armada to follow but the node collapsed or became too unstable. Another scout wing was not neccesary in FS2 because the Shivans  knew what they were up against, or at least they thought they did. We countered with our beams, and they began deployment of their armada in the nebula as we pushed in.

Or maybe they sent only the Lucifer back to the system because they knew it would be enough to handle anything that may have come up. They had been through the systems before, remember, and its possible they had already 'cleansed the entire area' Once the Lucifer was destroyed, its possible the nodes to T-V space were unstable.
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Offline IceFire

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Quote
Originally posted by Striker
The reason they didnt use the Ross 128 (and Ikeya?) node(s) was probably because they became unstable. It's even possible that the Lucifer fleet was sent out as a scout for the rest of the armada to follow but the node collapsed or became too unstable. Another scout wing was not neccesary in FS2 because the Shivans  knew what they were up against, or at least they thought they did. We countered with our beams, and they began deployment of their armada in the nebula as we pushed in.

Or maybe they sent only the Lucifer back to the system because they knew it would be enough to handle anything that may have come up. They had been through the systems before, remember, and its possible they had already 'cleansed the entire area' Once the Lucifer was destroyed, its possible the nodes to T-V space were unstable.

All this assumes that the GTVA was the target...I firmly believe that we weren't.  We're so self absorbed and self directed that it appears that they "must be coming for us."  But they pretty much ignore the GTVA when you think about it.  Sure they destroyed everything in their path...but their path took them to the Capella star.  Everything else was just a securing action.  There was no known (nothing mentioned and certainly nothing lasting - due to GTVA efforts or other) incursions into Epsilon Pegasi or Vega despite their massive buildup.

And if you think about it...80 Juggernaughts...could have wiped out the Bastion, the Colossus, the Capella Fleet HQ, and smashed their way across the GTVA with no trouble at all.  But it never happened....

So if the Capella star supernova was to shut the GTVA up or something like that....it was a waste of time.
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Offline Striker

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Here's a logical progression of my theory...

Lucifer fleet decimates Ancients b/c of subspace overuse
X000 years later...

T-V War attracts attention from Shivan monitors (that have access to T-V space) for using subspace too much.
Shivans deploy Lucy & co.  b/c they know that it can handle ships from that system.
Lucy fleet enters through Ross128 node
(at some point Ross128 node becomes unstable)
Lucy is destroyed en route to Sol
Shivans receive word of demise through subspace communications, but cant send full armada due to node unstability

Bosch's men open Knossos
Shivans know that GTVA is capable of destroying Lucifer
Shivans deploy Ravana strength fleet in nebula
GTVA destroys Ravana
Shivans deploy one Sathanas
GTVA destroys Sathanas
Shivans send in 80+ Sathani

Motives for Capella still unknown


If you look at it this way,
Lucy w/ fleet
We destroy it, they send something tougher. Easy to see.
...lurk

 

Offline FireCrack

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Actualy I'm preety sure the lucifer fleet was more powerfull than the first ravana fleet, the ravan was jut to hold the terrans off while the shivans moved the sath to the front lines.
actualy, mabye not.
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Offline NGTM-1R

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I'm starting to think that the Shivans aren't drawn to subspace disturbances, though they are attuned to them.

The Shivans are drawn to conflict. Perhaps they believe strongly in peace: strongly enough that they are ready, willing, and able to enforce it on those who are unwilling to be peaceful. For those who attract the attention of the Shivans recieve the most absolute and final form of peace imagineable: that of being dead. Or maybe the Shivans just like a good fight. Or maybe their motives for finding and extingushing conflicts are beyond comprehension. Regardless, their actions are not.

The Shivans slaughtered the Ancients, but only after a long period of time in which the Ancients were slaughtering other folks. This would seem to contradict my premise, but note that I said the Shivans were drawn to conflict, not violence. That wording was intentional.

According to the Ancients monologues most of the species the Ancients wiped out didn't (or couldn't) put up much of a fight. I can only guess, but maybe a little while before the Shivans came along there was a species that did put up a fight, not enough of one to stop the Ancients, but enough to bloody them.

In come the Shivans, drawn to the conflict, to destroy the combatants. They only find one standing, and wipe them out.

8000 years later, we have the Terran-Vasudan War. It's a long one, 14 years, and so I would guess it was not a high-intensity war for most of that time. Around the time the Shivans show up, however, it had clearly escalated to a high-intensity war. (Look at the casuality figures for Operation Thresher, for example. That's a lot of people considering they're pilots. Had they been infantry, I wouldn't have batted an eye, but five hundred pilots is an awful lot to lose in one operation.)

And here come the Shivans again, determined to enforce a final solution to the question of Terran-Vasudan relations. Only they fail. The Terrans and Vasudans unite against them, and destroy the Shivan expeditionary fleet.

But, this may well have been viewed by the Shivans as a victory. They did not immeditately withdraw once the Terrans and Vasudans had made peace with each other because that peace would have evaporated almost as quickly as it had been created. So the Shivans kept fighting. If they ultimately won, there would be a final, total peace. If they ultimately lost, but made a good fight of it, one that forced the Terrans and Vasudans to work together to the fullest, to support each other economically, militarily, and socially, to integrate, then the peace between the Terrans and Vasudans might well last.

32 years later, the NTF Rebellion breaks out. It does not attract the Shivans attention, however. Perhaps it would have eventually, but there is a short-circuit of that process. 17 months into the NTF Rebellion, the NTC Trinity activates the subspace portal in Gamma Draconis and enters the nebula.

We actually don't know who fired first in this case. We do know the Shivans fired first on the GTC Vigilant, but we do not know if the NTC Trinity fired first on the Shivans. I find it highly probable the Trinity encountered a Shivan patrol, which closed to look over this Terran ship that had somehow entered Shivan-controlled space. The Trinity, seeing Shivan ships and knowing what the Shivans did the last time they were in the neighborhood, interprets this as the Shivan patrol preparing to attack, and opens fire.

Now, the NTF Rebellion hasn't reached the level of conflict yet where the Shivans decide to intervene. Maybe they haven't noticed it. But if you're going to show up in Shivan-controlled space and attack them, they're going to respond in kind. The Shivans dispatch a probing force through the subspace portal to take a look around, set up a base camp on the other side, and in general prepare for a sortie.

The first Rakshasa into Vega encounters the GTC Vigilant. The Vigilant sees what are probably a Shivan cruiser and several Shivan fighter wings, goes to general quarters, and warms up the guns in preparation to attack. The Shivans didn't ask any questions before or after shooting last time, and they aren't expected to this time. The Rakshasa interprets the Vigilant's actions as the prelude to an attack, and shoots first. Or perhaps the Rakshasa, encountering what is probably a Terran ship, attacks, not realizing that it is attacking a GTVA ship and not an NTF one. After all, the Trinity had to come from somewhere, and Vega is the most likely canidate (Gamma Draconis was uncolonized and empty).

Now the GTVA knows the Shivans are back in town. And considering that both of the member races of the GTVA lost their homeworlds because of the Shivans, from the moment the Rakshasa fired on the Vigilant there was no chance of a peaceful resolution. There was little chance that the Shivans and GTVA could have come to a peaceful resolution before the Rakshasa attacked the Vigilant.

The GTVA now must do something with that information. They choose to act on it, swiftly, decisively. The Shivans were not all that powerful in the last invasion, only a few destroyers, a bunch of cruisers, and a lot of fighters. (In fact, probably only three or four destroyers: that's all Terran Command seemed to think that there were in FS1.) The GTVA's military arm was built and trained  for just this moment. There is no hesitation, and the order is given: Attack!

The Shivans, meanwhile, may or may not have realized their error in attacking the GTC Viligant. At this point, it does not really matter. What they did not expect was the speed and power of the GTVA's counterattack. Vega Command hears the Viligant's distress calls and tells the Carthage and Dashor to drop everything and head to the Gamma Draconis node. The Carthage and Dashor arrive on the scene at most a few minutes after the Viligant is destroyed, perhaps less.  The Carthage deploys fighter and bomber wings. Both it and the Dashor move to engage. The Rakshasa and its escorts never really have a chance.

This engagement gives the Shivans pause. The GTVA's ships are not the equal of their Shivan equivalents, but they are close, close enough that the difference is not insurmountable. The GTVA, meanwhile, is executing its preset war plans for second contact with the Shivans: attack with all available force, at once. They are confidant in their knowledge of Shivan ships and tactics, have trained and prepared for this battle for 32 years. They will prevail.

Before the Shivans can fully digest the implications of the engagement at the Gamma Draconis node, the GTD Aquitaine arrives in Gamma Draconis and engages Shivan forces there. The Shivans are unprepared, and are driven before the Aquitaine's battlegroup or destroyed. The Aquitaine, moving at blitzkrieg pace, pushes on through the portal and engages Shivan forces in the nebula, pushing them back, inflicting heavy casualities.

The Shivans are shocked. This has never happened before. Not only has their planned offensive come a cropper, a first in and of itself, but the offensive has actually been turned around on them as the GTVA pushes into the nebula.

Then suddenly, it stops. The GTVA stops pushing and merely starts to hold. The Shivans are mystified, but use the breather constructively, dispatching a Sathanas and supporting warships to push the GTVA back out of Shivan space and then end this fight in the usual Shivan fashion of annhilating all oppostion. In reality, what the Shivans don't know is that the GTVA is in the process of dealing the deathblow to the NTF.

The Sathanas is coming, but it isn't there yet, when suddenly the GTVA explodes into action again, pushing harder then they had before, throwing more ships and firepower into the attack then before. The Shivan front line crumbles, and rear-area Shivan operations are opened to Allied attack (the gas miners you hit in your first Vausdan mission). But all is not lost: the Shivans finally get the Sathanas into the area, and as they hoped GTVA opposition crumbles before the might of the juggernaut.

Then the battles at either end of the Gamma Draconis-Capella node result in the destruction of the Sathanas, and suddenly the GTVA is back, pushing hard yet again, trampling the small Shivan force still in the nebula. More Sathani are dispatched.

Something odd is happening too, though: one Terran ship is not attacking them, but trying to communicate with them. The Shivans are mystified, but agree to meet Bosch and talk with him. The combat aboard the Iceni was a colossal miscommunication, a panicked crewer firing on the Shivans that boarded and the situation escalating badly before Bosch got through to both the Shivans and his crew. There were, after all, two transports that docked with the Iceni: if Bosch and company, plus the Shivan boarding party (or what was left of it) were onboard the first, who was getting on the second? Probably a good portion of the remainder of the Iceni's crew. But starships were not made to have firefights inside their hulls, and damage was done to the Iceni's systems. Damage that left Lieutenant Rusk and his compatriots in the dark about the peaceful ending to this encounter, although they probably wondered why the Shivans hadn't returned to exterminate them.

From their discussions with Bosch, the Shivans learn that they have made a giant mistake, starting with destroying the GTC Vigilant and moving on to every other GTVA ship and crewer or pilot they have killed since. The GTVA is acting out of an apparent need to defend themselves, not a desire to attack the Shivans. The ones who started it were the crew of the NTC Trinity: even the NTF, in the personage of Aken Bosch, never meant for there to be a war with the Shivans.

But mistake or not, the Shivans have thrown the gauntlet down, and the GTVA has picked the gauntlet up. The GTVA will never make peace with the Shivans. Rather, the GTVA will make every effort to annhilate the Shivans just as the Shivans have annhilated so many others. The Shivans no longer wish to destroy the GTVA, though. The GTVA has done nothing wrong. So somehow, they must end this fight without a formal peace.

The GTVA has Knossos technology: if the Shivans merely retreat and blow the nodes leading into the nebula, the GTVA will believe they are winning, use Knossos portals to reopen the nodes, and continue their campaign. Destroying Gamma Draconis might work. But it might not, as the GTVA might conclude it had cost the Shivans much of their Sathanas fleet, and the rest had gone somewhere else.

Finally the Shivans settle on causing the Capella supernova as the best, most clear way of both sealing themselves off from GTVA incursions by that route, and sending a message: Don't screw with us. We're bigger, we're meaner, and we will kick your ***. And they carry this plan out.

The GTVA doesn't comprehend the reasoning behind what happened, but the message got through loud and clear. They know better then to screw with the Shivans now.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 03:24:36 am by 2191 »
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Offline aldo_14

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Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r

The first Rakshasa into Vega encounters the GTC Vigilant. The Vigilant sees what are probably a Shivan cruiser and several Shivan fighter wings, goes to general quarters, and warms up the guns in preparation to attack. The Shivans didn't ask any questions before or after shooting last time, and they aren't expected to this time. The Rakshasa interprets the Vigilant's actions as the prelude to an attack, and shoots first. Or perhaps the Rakshasa, encountering what is probably a Terran ship, attacks, not realizing that it is attacking a GTVA ship and not an NTF one. After all, the Trinity had to come from somewhere, and Vega is the most likely canidate (Gamma Draconis was uncolonized and empty).
 


One thing; the Rakshasa that destroys the Vigilant doesn't wait to fire; it begins powering its beams before it's even left subspace & fires immediately afterwards.  The Vigilant wouldn't even have time to warm its guns.

I think one other thing worth noting is that the FS1 ref bible has an interesting cutscene cut;

Act 1 intro
[q].  In research news, the subspace research team on the Terran science cruiser Kirillov have made a press release concerning their lack of solid findings in the past year…


Next shot shows outside of bar’s doors.  The etched glass bears the name “ITA Repulse Officer’s Club”

[cut to outside the bar’s doors.  A doors part as a crewmember approaches, revealing the noise & such inside]

Anchor:   …had the following to say in their press release.

[cut to inside shot, showing newly arrived crewmember walking to the bar.]
Scientist-XXX   Since the discovery of subspace travel twenty two years ago, mankind has been able to travel and communicate over many star systems.  Subspace travel and communication are used every day, by people in all walks of life.  However, research into the inner workings of subspace has been making very slow progress in the past few years.  While we have been able to discover the reasons subspace travel works, and how and how to develop devices to utilize it, we are still unsure what subspace really is, and why it’s there to begin with.  In past centuries, people made machines based on the principles of gravity before anyone fully understood what caused it.

[cut to a couple crewmembers playing pool]
Anchor:   Dr. XXX’s team was recently granted an extension on their military contract for research into subspace origins.
[/q]

To me this implies that subspace is highlighted early on for some specific reason; and that subspace travel is far from refined.  Maybe Venom/Nico was on the button with his OtT storyline.......

And what's one of the first things the Shivans do - or try to do - in FS2?  Secure the Knossos subspace portal.

IF, you think of riviera as a subspace research institute, and Vasuda Prime / Earth as the 'origin' of subspace travel for both species, it gets quite interesting; could the Shivans have been pinpoint-targeting the GTVAs ability to use subspace?

Food for thought, I think. :)

Oh, and as an aside; the Act 3 Misc 2A cutscene (cut, not sure what remains in the command brief) makes it pretty clear that the Shivans had multiple Lucifer-or-similarly shielded vessels during that war;
.  In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace.  The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down.  Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device.  


EDIT; oh, and the Ancients of course retreated to their homeplanet, and still the Shivans came.    In other words, the Shivans don't look the type to let any transgressor species survive.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2004, 04:50:02 am by 181 »

 
Quote
Originally posted by ngtm1r

According to the Ancients monologues most of the species the Ancients wiped out didn't (or couldn't) put up much of a fight. I can only guess, but maybe a little while before the Shivans came along there was a species that did put up a fight, not enough of one to stop the Ancients, but enough to bloody them.


In all those years i've been playing in the FS universe, no matter how may times i watch those monologues, i've never had the impression that the Ancients "wiped out" entire civilizations. I've always tought more of a an empire of enslaved thralls. But maybe that's just me.

Interesting theory tough... :)
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Offline NGTM-1R

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Quote
Originally posted by aldo_14

One thing; the Rakshasa that destroys the Vigilant doesn't wait to fire; it begins powering its beams before it's even left subspace & fires immediately afterwards.  The Vigilant wouldn't even have time to warm its guns.


That's why I added the second part. The Rakshasa may have just figured it's hostile, since the Trinity was hostile, Gamma Drac was empty, and only one node out of Gamma Drac was fit for use of Terran ships: that to Vega.


Quote
To me this implies that subspace is highlighted early on for some specific reason; and that subspace travel is far from refined. Maybe Venom/Nico was on the button with his OtT storyline...

And what's one of the first things the Shivans do - or try to do - in FS2? Secure the Knossos subspace portal.


Well, the cutscene never did make it into the game, and I admit I didn't consult my copy of the reference bible when constructing my theory, but it may have been just an attempt to emphasize the Shivan's superiority over us. Or it may just have been filler, intended to acquaint the player with the realities of life in the FS universe. Impossible to say, open to interpretation.

I don't deny the Shivans might have a lot to do with subspace, might even have been born/created there, but as for the Knossos, that's just good tactics. The GTVA tries to secure it too, after all.

Quote
IF, you think of riviera as a subspace research institute, and Vasuda Prime / Earth as the 'origin' of subspace travel for both species, it gets quite interesting; could the Shivans have been pinpoint-targeting the GTVAs ability to use subspace?


Ehh...I'm not buying that one. First, because there's no evidence for the Riveria being such a place. Second, because after entering through the back door in Ross 128, the first places the Shivans hit were systems that were on the front line of the Terran-Vasudan War. Then they headed for Vasuda Prime, pasted that, and went for Earth.

Quote
Oh, and as an aside; the Act 3 Misc 2A cutscene (cut, not sure what remains in the command brief) makes it pretty clear that the Shivans had multiple Lucifer-or-similarly shielded vessels during that war;  In the last months of their species’ existence, they were perfecting a device to allow ships to be tracked in subspace. The Ancient’s planned on using this to attack the Shivans’ key ships in subspace while their shields were down. Unfortunately, the Shivans destroyed their fleets before they could exploit this device.


That's true. BUT in FS1, you only see THREE Shivan destroyers (SD Lucifer, SD Eva, and the Demon that intercepted the GTD Bastion when it was en route to Delta Serpentis.) and only  hear about two before the fact (SD Lucifer and SD Eva).

Quote
EDIT; oh, and the Ancients of course retreated to their homeplanet, and still the Shivans came. In other words, the Shivans don't look the type to let any transgressor species survive.


The Ancients, if they had been left alone, would have expanded again, killed more civilizations, and the Shivans would have had to come back eventually. There would not have been a lasting peace. The Ancients would not learn, could not learn, because they still had no reason to be peaceful towards anyone that they encountered: they had conquered everybody, then got their butts kicked by the Shivans.

The Terran-Vasudan alliance is a different case. They have learned the value of peace with other cultures. They have learned tolerance from fighting the Shivans alongside each other. When the GTVA encounters another civilization aside from the Shivans, it is far more likely to extend the hand of friendship then to attack. They have several good reasons for this: among the foremost is that they can use all the allies they can get if the Shivans come back. Another is that every time there has been a major conflict, the Shivans have shown up and caused mass destruction.
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